The correct way to maintain a well ordered society free of crime is through education. Just hiring anybody who says they want to be a cop and then handing out firearm certificates after a few weeks training does not a good cop make. If a guy wants to be a cop because he knows he'll get to use a gun then he should be barred from ever owning one, or for that matter from ever being a cop. Furthermore, the cutoff point for hiring based on I.Q. should be represented by a minimum, not a maximum. The system as it is fails the people.

From the article

When should the police use confrontational tactics?

Every time there is a Donald Trump rally!

I know it's a small thing but it might help if the police looked like police and not black uniformed kitted out military commandos with marine style haircuts. Police should look like they are part of the civilian population and not the military.

This comment has been removed by a moderator.

@dog

The tragedies where the police kill people who are not a threat and are not resisting arrest should be treated as simple murder

in 99% of the cases, they are
i am sure there are cases that slip between the cracks because that is just how stuff works

What is missing is that the police are never held accountable for murdering citizens who are not a threat

i don't see this

again, the statistics prove it out that most cops who commit murder (or who even shoot unarmed citizens) are held accountable

and i am not saying it doesn't sometimes happen

i am just saying that unless you can provide some statistical evidence that cops who commit murder aren't held accountable then you're just venting about the bad choices of a small minority

ain't no reason to tar them all with the same coat
that is no different than any other prejudice, really

When police act like they're not part of the civilian population, they become parasites and should be treated as such by all members of that population. It's past time that they started paying attention to the presumption of innocence encoded in the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments to the US Constitution. The fact that they will not is a stain on the US Constitution and they should be held accountable, by firing, and arrest and prosecution.

When police act like they're not part of the civilian population, they become parasites and should be treated as such

True. but when the civilian population acts like they aren't part of the civilian population (by open aggression) they should be allowed to defend themselves. Just because they wear a uniform does not give civilians carte blanche to abuse not afforded with regards to e.g. another civilian.

I've been at a number of protests over the years and overall I have to say the police are doing a good job (using deescalation tactics in advance). Yes, there are times when I wished they would have handled things differently but in retrospect situations escalate far too quickly sometimes to demand fully logical/measured response at all times. There's certainly room for improvement, but police aren't robots.

Put a person into a lot of dicey situations on a daily basis and the chance of an error in judgement happening is just greater. That's just common sense.

When I see police abusing handicapped people on order I no longer consider them part of civil society. When they stand up and refuse to obey orders to assault the civilly disobedient they will regain their honor. Until then they are not us.

Congrefs shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE, AND PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVENCES.

Period.

When the Capital Police violated the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, they announced themselves as traitors against that Constitution and they should be arrested, imprisoned, and prosecuted as such, IMNAAHO. Illegal orders are illegal orders, and anyone who follows them has committed a crime. There is no exception for "I was following orders." It's obvious when you start assaulting handicapped people that you have stepped over the line, and if you accept these orders you are complicit, and have violated the law.

When I see police abusing handicapped people on order I no longer consider them part of civil society.

And those that do should be persecuted and punished (just like any other civilian would who acted that way). I think bodycams and the like are a good idea to get this out in the open. but,a s you say, the ones who ordered it should be punished above all.

But let's not paint with too broad brush, here. Maybe we're falling for reporting bias (i.e. we're getting all the bad stuff they do reported...but the majority of police officers who do their job well don't get a peep on the news).
While I realize that the police in the US are somewhat more aggressive (hell, the only time I got harrassed by police in my life was at a US airport) I can't really believe that the majority of police in the US are bad guys. I don't go for the 'they' are not us. I'd say: the ones who misbehave are not us.

Unfortunately those who misbehave taint the rest, and those who do not see to it they are punished for misbehavior are complicit. Standing by and witnessing a crime without acting to stop it, and especially not insisting upon bringing it before the courts, is not excused under my Constitution. This has been found by the courts to be particularly true of those who serve. There is no exception for the halls of our Senators and Representatives; and "peaceable" does not mean "silent."

I can't imagine a scenario where the handicapped who are about to be denied reasonably priced health insurance do not have a grievence to be redressed.

Unfortunately those who misbehave taint the rest

Agreed. Especially when it's used in reporting. Trump uses individual instances of immigration violence to paint all immigrants as violent. People use examples of right wingers in germany to paint all germans as Nazis, ...you name it. Let's not stoop to the same level by using individual instances to paint all police as paramilitary thugs.

If the justice system is not doing its job in persecuting these crimes then it's time to vote someone in who will right that state of affairs.

It becomes obvious after watching a while that the police have stopped obeying the Constitution. They have their own rules that the Courts obey; and this has contaminated jurisprudence. One can discern the pattern from before the 19th century.

The very rules we allow the police in our country to obey are not compatible with our Constitution. Where have we gone and how did we get there?

@antialias,you are much less cynical than I am. I don't really think there's a great deal of difference between observing a colleague violating the constitution and not reporting it, and observing a colleague violating the felony murder statutes and not reporting it. If these sworn officers did what they promised to do when they swore, then this would not be a problem.

The correct way to maintain a well ordered society free of crime is through education

-And kids should be educated at a young age on how to act around armed police.

But crime has various origins. What police are dealing with in high crime areas is actually tribalism, where crimes committed against outsiders and rivals in support of one's tribe is not perceived as crime.

Instead it it is an expected and honored behavior. And punishment for it has no effect unless it can be used to remove the criminal from his tribe and convince him to join yours.

It becomes obvious after watching a while that the police have stopped obeying the Constitution

-Well that's pretty much nonsense. Guess you missed all those cops getting injured while protecting antifa's right to protest.

But cops also have a strong tribal identity. Tribalists are especially sensitive to tribal behavior in others; we all are. We are conditioned to perceive it as a threat. Because in reality that's exactly what it is. It provokes a tribal response which leads to escalation on both sides, and this is very hard to defuse.

Cops who exceed the bounds of their training may feel they are protecting fellow tribesmen, and aren't aware that what they're doing is wrong.

The very rules we allow the police in our country to obey are not compatible with our Constitution. Where have we gone and how did we get there?

I can't really say. Countering them with violence seems wrong, though.
The reasone why I'm less cynical is probably because I've not had any really bad expeirences with the police over here. There are some, as mentioned, where I'd done it differently, but at the end of the day they are doing their jobs. Even the cop at the US airport apologized afterwards
(I was on a way to a conference on extremely short notice. Back then I still had long hair and was wearing my most rundown coat and carrying a shoddy duffle bag. After a 5 hour delay and a 9 hour flight I was also not looking my best. Got baggage searched three times before I managed to get to the airport exit. Someone looking like a drug mule out of Schipol (Amsterdam) claiming to give a scientific talk the next morning didn't sound too believable, I guess ;) )

@Otto, when I see interference with the right to peaceably assemble, I see traitors to the Law of my Country. Peaceably doesn't mean silently, and there is no right on the part of the legislature not to be required to listen to the will of those who are exercising their First Amendment rights. That's why we have open meeting laws.

Handicapped people who are about to be stripped of their rights are not members of an imaginary organization you designate in order to justify violating their right to be heard. Get over it.

The very rules we allow the police in our country to obey are not compatible with our Constitution. Where have we gone and how did we get there?

I can't really say. Countering them with violence seems wrong, though.

Who is countering with violence? Are you seriously contending that there were a bunch of handicapped people committing violence?

Let's get serious here. If the cops were not traitors they'd have been giving instructions to the people exercising their First Amendment rights on how not to get hurt and offering them water. Nobody would object to the cops doing that. Nobody would object to the cops removing anyone who offered violence. But that's not what they did.

So now that we have vented our frustrations...what is the way forward?
The thing I see working over here is the independence of the police and the justice system from the political system. I'd like to paraphrase director John Frankenheimer from the commentary soundtrack to the movie 'Ronin' where he mentions that if the mayor of Los Angeles welcomes you to shoot a movie the police step aside. When the mayor of Paris does the same it means nothing at all with respect to the law."(this is very similar to germany. The politicos cannot make the police do unlawful stuff. They'd get scolded by the police president. Seriously.)

So: independence, better social sensibility training, but maybe also a program to teach the people that their job is to help the police by preventing crime. That it is a communal responsibility to keep a society from sliding into anarchy.

Are you seriously contending that there were a bunch of handicapped people committing violence?

I'm not referring to the particular incident. The problem is a nation-wide one. You have stuff like this cropping up everywhere (like that cop that pepper-sprayed seated protesters at some university).
It must be made clear that there will be consequences for such behavior. And if the current bunch of lawmakers aren't up to the task to make that happen then replacements are in order.

The problen, @antialias, is that there aren't any consequences. Every cop who participated in this outrageous conduct got away with it. There are no consequences. That's the problem.

Otto, when I see interference with the right to peaceably assemble, I see traitors to the Law of my Country. Peaceably doesn't mean silently

-Like these ninja cuties?
https://youtu.be/54MetzvFJHE

Who is countering with violence? Are you seriously contending that there were a bunch of handicapped people committing violence?

This guy doesn't look handicapped to me
https://youtu.be/-Nbh3ItqFyo

-what are you talking about?

Every cop who participated in this outrageous conduct got away with it. There are no consequences. That's the problem.

So what needs to change to make consequences come about? I agree that this is a bad situation, but there must be a way out of this. Maybe not immediately but by using some of the tools available in a democracy.

The problen, @antialias, is that there aren't any consequences. Every cop who participated in this outrageous conduct got away with it

Lie. Cops are charged all the time.
http://www.nbcphi...023.html

- Do a search.

The type of people who are allowed to be police needs to change.

Someone looking like a drug mule out of Schipol (Amsterdam) claiming to give a scientific talk the next morning didn't sound too believable, I guess

@antialias_physorg
this is an unfortunate byproduct of experience, training and updates in the local and worldwide police org's... it's sometimes referred to as profiling, but as has been proven by the FBI and various studies which built the ISU program, it works fairly well when trained properly

what is the way forward?

education is the big step, as there really is no way to alleviate the tribalistic behaviour problem: when you must rely upon others of your "tribe", as otto put it so succinctly, it builds a bond closer than even family

another way is to insure the protection (right now) for whistle blowers, instead of leaving them as targets for retribution

not sure how to really remove the politics from the police though...
2Bcont'd

@antialias_physorg cont'd
one of the biggest problems that i've seen is the generational differences and the difficulties of certain types of departments to change: change is inevitable and must happen - when you get a chief or dept. that is stagnating and refuses to change it is a marker for problems and other issues like corruption

the one thing that is definitely a problem with society is also the lack of respect for the job: being a cop or detective is a job. when you are tarred with the bad actions of someone you may not even know because of yet another person who can't differentiate between their beliefs on a topic with their idealistic perspective and what may happen in reality , then what do you do?

the issue at that point isn't the cop, but the delusional person who doesn't understand how the system works (which many, many people don't, regardless of education or free access to information, like this: http://thelawdictionary.org/ )

@antialias_physorg last

It must be made clear that there will be consequences for such behavior....

one last point
offered IMHO only and not offered as a defense for any actions that may be justifiably prosecuted

be fully conversant with the facts and not just the opinion of what happened before stepping in to give advice about what you perceive is a problem

this is where sh*t gets hard for people - the opinion of the news is NOT in any way evidence, nor is what is reported because it may not be factual (See: AR-15 shotgun in navy yard shooting)

the best source of factual information is either to be a detective on the review board
OR
the legal paperwork submitted, be it judicial findings or investigative reports

also: you must understand for reasons of legal prosecution there WILL be evidence held back you're not aware of

arguing to prosecute cops when one is not conversant with the facts due to their acceptance of media reporting is a bad idea

just sayin'

@dog

So far as I have heard, no one has been charged with anything in her murder

OK, for the record i am not saying this is a justified shooting, but i have questions and i will put my thoughts with them

1- what time of day or night was it? the pajama statement makes me think it was night, and cops are jumy when approached out of the night too quickly...

2- how long ago was this? just because the wheels of justice seem to move slowly doesn't mean it's not happening: there is no statute of limitations on homicide, and it's serious enough that those who investigate will take their time to make sure it sticks

3- what was the neighborhood and it's typical callout? if you can send specific links so i can see the legal paperwork it would be better

it may be negligent homicide, which may require certain key evidence (see: blacks law link in post to AAP above)

would love to know more... back in a bit

@Dog

It was in a very good neighborhood

any way you can hit us with a link to the news story?
at least then i can take a look at the county, crime stats and more to get a feel for the situation
plus, i may be able to FOIA some data

It was not negligent homicide. The officer who shot her arrived with a loaded weapon. He armed the weapon, pointed directly at the victim and pulled the trigger. He has not been arrested

well, he arrived with and was armed with a loaded weapon because it was his duty, so that is not relevant
the shooting part is, though, and part of that is establishing negligence
here is the basic rule for compensation due to negligence, so you can see it's more involved than just being there: http://thelawdict...-per-se/

No one has been arrested, fingerprinted, strip searched or detained in jail

officers are printed and have DNA on file already, so that isn't required
2Bcont'd

@dog cont'd
also, there may not be justification under the law for holding in jail until trial as the suspects have established contacts and can be on bail or ROR due to the prosecution, if there was an inability to establish a potential flight risk then there is no need to remand to custody (remember: innocent until proven guilty in a court of law)

plus, there is the investigation to consider
we can't jump to conclusions based upon media coverage, as i stated to AAP above
and unless you were a first hand witness to the shooting, your circumstantial case isn't giving me a whole lot of working concrete evidence (if you were a first hand witness, you may wish to contact the department and discuss your information with the detectives or prosecuting attourney)

The officers have declined to talk about the incident until they can receive counsel from their lawyers

standard procedure as well as Union rules, should they be union

@dog cont'd

The also failed to have their body cameras active during the incident.

this is suspicious, but not indicitive of anything until it can be ruled out that this isn't equipment failure or training failure

so that's out until further investigation
should there be a connection that makes it more relevant, it will be important, though

But they should not be considered above the law

for the record: none are
it directly violates the rule of law, for starters
it is also unconstitutional as the primary basis for said constitution is equal treatment under the law (the rule of law)

The same procedures which would have been implemented for you or me should have been activated for them

how do you know they haven't been?
like i said: a link would be nice

There is no doubt about who shot her. Yet the person who shot her has not been apprehended or questioned

1- the wheels move slowly
2Bcont'd

@dog cont'd

... has not been apprehended or questioned

2- can you account for all movement of investigators and suspects for the whole time?
no
don't make assumptions on that one
plus, protocol requires not just an investigation into the shooting as an internal policy, but three investigations: IA into the shooting, IA into the suspect, then a situational department investigation for prosecution

once those three are concluded it will be entirely on the head of the prosecution to either prosecute under the full extent of the law or ignore it

don't be concerned until the prosecution makes a specific statement of action (or inaction), and then send me the link to the justification of whichever happens

Neither has he been arrested. This is the common practice and it is wrong

it's not common practice

just because it happens on TV doesn't mean it's representative of reality
like i said, wait till the prosecution makes a statement of intent or action

let me know

The type of people who are allowed to be police needs to change.

Probably a good start. There's stringent tests over here (above average intelligence is a must besides the physical fitness aspects). A few years back I saw an interesting documentary where one of the instructors said (paraphrasing from memory): "People with 'Rambo' metalities are thrown out immediately". They want the quiet, controlled type.

referred to as profiling, but as has been proven by the FBI and various studies which built the ISU program, it works fairly well

I didn't mind the first search. Given how I looked I could fully understand it (I was sorta amused having to explain to the officer what kind of talk I was about to give. You shoulda seen the look on his face. Didn't understand a word when I prattled on about biomechanic modeling and haptic interface interaction).
What I found a bit vexing were the two more searches (by different officers) on the way to the exit, though.

As for the rest...yes: this needs to be an effort on both sides.
On the one hand the police need to increase the quality of their personel (especially those in leadership positions) and excercise more restraint as well as abide by the law instead of politicians' orders.
On the other hand people need to view police officers as people who want to help them instead of harass them. They need to realize that being confronted with criminals on a daily basis is a sh*t job and can lead to a skewed perception of what the average citizen is like by the officers. So some slack should be given (i.e. cops should be protected from frivolous lawsuits...maybe the rabidly litigous attitude in the US has some part to play in all this?).

(paraphrasing from memory): "People with 'Rambo' metalities are thrown out immediately". They want the quiet, controlled type

@AAP
there is a similar stringent protocol for evaluation here starting with psyche evaluations and ending with history
one thing that is a big plus is military background because of the Rules of Engagement that we have to abide by, which can be multiple sets dependent upon location, time and situation

What I found a bit vexing were the two more searches (by different officers)

likely due to lack of communication and target profiling
That first officer should have been more communicative, but this is also a tactic when there is a target suspect who seems legit that they want to shake up to see if they can get you to provide probable cause

this happens to me a lot, really, because i more closely resemble a felon
until i flash the badge, that is, which i don't always do

@AAP cont'd

increase the quality of their personel (especially those in leadership positions)

this is hard as most positions tend to be political
a constable and sheriff is voted in, and they're not always versed in LE

abide by the law instead of politicians' orders

still trying to think of a good way around this one: perhaps by eliminating the political appointments who run departments? (sheriff and constable)
a judge runs for office, but requires a background, training, etc...

being confronted with criminals on a daily basis is a sh*t job and can lead to a skewed perception

you aint kiddin'!
100 stars for that part alone

maybe the rabidly litigous attitude in the US has some part to play in all this?

it does
a detective can spend copious amounts his time in court... any day in court is a day that is not productive as a detective, and that means making up that time off hours because the dept can't always pay OT for the work

@AAP last

On the other hand people need to view police officers as people who want to help them instead of harass them

this is especially hard to do in certain areas, especially when the media tend to advocate for measures that are counterproductive and or irrational in the face of the situation

as Otto pointed out above, correctly i might add, there is a fierce tribal attitude in certain low income areas and that includes an ingrained hatred or mistrust of authority in general, and cops especially because the LE take their resources away (other bangers)

then you have situations that are misconstrued in the media adding fuel to the fire and even when it's justifiable and there is cause to target a cop as a suspect, this tars all cops with the same hatred regardless of location
(rodney king comes to mind here: we're all abusive racists, and that incident proved it-/sarc)

just look at the mistrust talked about above and the minority incidents what triggered it

they want to shake up to see if they can get you to provide probable cause

but...but...but...I checked the field 'no' on the questionnaire they made us fill out in the plane where it said "are you bringing illegal narcotics into the country?" ;)

(seriously...It's right next to the question whether I'm wanted for war crimes based on the Nuremberg trials...no joke...the funniest part on this questionnaire was the paper slip attached to it that asked for suggestions on how to reduce unnecessary paperwork...sometimes real life is more bizarre than you can imagine)

was not negligent homicide. The officer who shot her arrived with a loaded weapon. He armed the weapon, pointed directly at the victim and pulled the trigger. He has not been arrested

dog speaks of this
http://www.nbcnew...-n787276

-as we know, unlike regular dogs dog abhors evidence. This cop will be charged in a week or 2, fired, and eventually convicted of manslaughter.

Cops get convicted all the time
https://www.washi...f099fa0f

-but curiously it is hard to find these cases on google.

BTW dog

Cop guns are always loaded with one in the chamber so they can draw and return fire. Remember revolvers? They were always loaded. Except for Barney fife of course who was only allowed one bullet in his pocket.

Please do keep that in mind will you?

Like I say these things should be taught in grade school.

Stump I would 5/5 you if my phone would let me.

I checked the field 'no' on the questionnaire they made us fill out in the plane where it said "are you bringing illegal narcotics into the country?"

ROTFLMFAO
i like to check yes... but then again, i like being frisked
[jk]

the funniest part on this questionnaire ...sometimes real life is more bizarre than you can imagine

i know, right?

let me add to your finny story by sharing this: when I was NCOIC of Training in the military we generated a LOT of paper. we required 3 copies of everything - one for the orderly room 301 file (personnel record), one for the battalion and one for the base

Everything was also digitized and forwarded to military records

the military went to a "paperless office", which then required not only the digital record, plus two backups (one on CD, one on backup HD), but also the following backup printed files:
company level orderly room backup file
301 file
battalion file
base file

gov't logic at work!

Stump I would 5/5 you if my phone would let me.

thanks

-but curiously it is hard to find these cases on google.

i wonder why that is?

i will look into those links you left (Justine Damond) as soon as i get some time

it seems that they've already begun instituting some changes in the dept

perhaps we can FOIA some data from Minneapolis Police but i highly doubt we will get anything as it's an ongoing investigation

i still wonder why the body cams weren't on too
procedural error due to heightened adrenal response? (cops get excitable when responding - Code Three syndrome: http://www.police...ome.aspx )

i bet this will come out in time too

as Otto pointed out above, correctly i might add, there is a fierce tribal attitude in certain low income areas and that includes an ingrained hatred or mistrust of authority in general, and cops especially because the LE take their resources away (other bangers)

Let us not forget the Michael Brown shooting
https://en.wikipe...el_Brown

- and the lies routinely told by alleged witnesses, some of which weren't even there. Lies in support of the community/tribe.

The 6 credible witnesses out of 20+, all black, whose testimony all corroborated, exonerated the cop and exposed the lies.

Perhaps the tribal dynamic is so strong that it affects perception. Perhaps one person in the mob shouted 'hands up don't shoot' and that's what they all believed they saw.

But Brown was about to kill that cop which is why he was shot.

Just like Zimmerman murdered trayvon. Just last week I saw a black female professor repeat that lie on tv.

Outrageous.

@Dog

Then I noted that the shooter armed his gun (released the safety and/or chambered a round)

no
LE in general typically do not keep their firearms on "safe" - the last thing you want is a firearm that will not work because you forgot to release the safety, especially when you're facing criminals who will not hesitate to fire
Also, with modern technology and the redundant additional safety mechanisms (like this: https://us.glock....e-action ) it's not an issue (typically) for accidental discharge, like when dropped, so a cop or detective typically never uses the safety catch

It was deliberate murder. It did not just happen
People do get shot accidentally. This was not one of those incidents

1- we don't get to make this claim unless we're on the jury because we don't know all the relevant facts

2- there are mitigating circumstances that can apply that you are not aware of, hence the reason i linked the black's law dictionary

Stumpy continued ...

The police should not be exempt from the same legal processes they apply to the general population. Why has the man who shot this woman not been arrested? Why has he not been before a judge? Why has he simply been allowed to walk free when no citizen who is not on the police force would have been allowed to walk free?

Due process you moron. The same thing afforded every other citizen in this country.