Maybe we can engineer some solar sailing automated craft now and take advantage of this property.
"This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe. In the mass polariton theory of light this hypothesis is not needed since redshift becomes automatically proportional to the distance from the star to the observer," explains Professor Jukka Tulkki.How on earth can this be construed as "supports the hypothesis of EXPANDING UNIVERSE" by that professor? It actually supports the TIRED LIGHT hypothesis! I have long pointed out how the many glancing photon-matter collisions and the dispersive re-radiation of SOME the 'sapped energy' at a variety of many off-line-of-motion angles, will greatly attenuate/sap energy from the traveling photon, and do so the more as distance traveled from source to our detectors becomes greater. Hence the REDSHIFT OVER DISTANCE correlation observed! Hence there is NO NEED for the EXPANDING UNIVERSE hypothesis at all.
So, @antialias, @RNP, @IMP-9, etc; will you now agree with me?
Duplicated. Deleted by me. Thanks.You are welcome Cher, it was just as weird as the first one, so you probably did not do any harm.
@ Really-Skippy. How you are Cher? I'm good, it's a little wet today but non great problem, thanks for asking.So, you, a bot-voting ignoramus, recommends/predicts that ME being correct on that TOO, is sufficient grounds for NOT agreeing with me? So much for your 'scientific method' hey, Ira? Pitiable, as well as "wet". :)So, @antialias, @RNP, @IMP-9, etc; will you now agree with me?
Hooyeei, that would be something, eh Cher? Ol Ira-Skippy is giving good odds that will never happen. Any takers?
"This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe. In the mass polariton theory of light this hypothesis is not needed since redshift becomes automatically proportional to the distance from the star to the observer," explains Professor Jukka Tulkki.How on earth can this be construed as "supports the hypothesis of EXPANDING UNIVERSE" by that professor? It actually supports the TIRED LIGHT hypothesis! I have long pointed out how the many glancing photon-matter collisions and the dispersive re-radiation of SOME the 'sapped energy' at a variety of many off-line-of-motion angles, will greatly attenuate/sap energy from the traveling photon, and do so the more as distance traveled from source to our detectors becomes greater. Hence the REDSHIFT OVER DISTANCE correlation observed! Hence there is NO NEED for the EXPANDING UNIVERSE hypothesis at all.
What an internet loser you are, Ira. Pitiable.We are just fooling around here Cher. You don't have to have such a thin skin.
So, @antialias, @RNP, @IMP-9, @DS, etc; will you now agree with me?And you call me a the internet loser and pitiful. At least I don't have to go around begging peoples to agree with me, two times in a row in the same article, three times if you count the one you took down because it was twice as goofy as the first one.
Hmmmm. I'm pretty skeptical. I'll have a look at the paper on arXiv: https://arxiv.org...7224.pdfGood morning (here), mate! You will note that Uncle Ira is still trying to 'bury' my initial post under his troll crap so that he can later deny I posted correct science on this issue as well. I re-posted it so you/gang will not miss it. Can you please read my post and give the forum your thoughts re what I pointed out?
The reader can easily verify that a photon with energy E=ℏω and momentum p=ℏω/(nc) does not fulfill the covariance condition E² - (pc)² = (m[ph]c²)² if the rest mass m[ph] of a photon is set to zero.I'm sorry, why not? I'll need to look further; this might not be wrong, but the author doesn't justify it at this point.
So is this article saying the universe is not expanding?Yes. The article writer misquoted the professor in the last paragraph. The part:
"This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe."should obviously have read:
"This effectively REFUTES the hypothesis of expanding universe."You can confirm this is what was meant because of the overall context, and also because the subsequent sentence specifically has him as saying:
"...this hypothesis is NOT NEEDED since redshift becomes automatically proportional to the distance from the star to the observer,"Which explains why the distance-redshift correlation is what is observed without the need for 'expanding universe' or other Big Bang interpretational overlays on the actual redshift data.
@Phil DePayne.
So is this article saying the universe is not expanding?
Yes. The article writer misquoted the professor in the last paragraph. The part:
"This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe."
should obviously have read:
"This effectively REFUTES the hypothesis of expanding universe.
What's the matter, Ira? Hate it that I am increasingly being confirmed correct, yet again? Is that why you characterize my pointing out (in context and with specific quotes thereafter) an obvious typo by article writer, as somehow not proper? It's standard procedure in discussions. You're desperate.@Phil DePayne.So is this article saying the universe is not expanding?Yes. The article writer misquoted the professor in the last paragraph. The part:"This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe."You know what they call a Skippy who changes the words that somebody else wrote to pretend it is the same thing they have been incorrect about all along? A Really-Skippy lying.should obviously have read:"This effectively REFUTES the hypothesis of expanding universe.
Knock it off. Just because you show up with your own silly looking pointy cap does not mean you are allowed to lie about the writers of the articles.
....construed as "supports the hypothesis of EXPANDING UNIVERSE" by that professor? It actually supports the TIRED LIGHT hypothesis!
by Doppler shift being larger from distant stars. This effectively supports the hypothesis of expanding universe. In the mass polariton theory of light this hypothesis is not needed since redshift becomes automatically proportional to the distance from the star to the observer," explains Prof Jukka Tulkki.
Now hold on to your horses for just a second RC. I copied the entire paragraph noting the good Prof put it into the context of DOPPLER SHIFT, not zany Zwicky's TIRED LIGHT theory.I see what you are trying to say, Benni. But the actual meaning of the whole study results explicitly points out that the thermal RE-RADIATION (by the atomic constituents/lattice) effectively is "inelastic scattering" in which the photon energy is sapped over distance traveled through the intergalactic medium. So whether you invoke inelastic Compton scattering or other inelastic scattering processes, it's another energy-transfer/loss process. :)
I will agree with you that it is a murky theory that redshift occurs solely due to Doppler Effect, which is what the good Prof pushes here. It seems nothing in his redshift conclusions takes into account Compton Inelastic scattering. He appears to assume there is a Doppler Shift in his experiment, but his paper doesn't show how he measures it.
the actual meaning of the whole study results explicitly points out that the thermal RE-RADIATION (by the atomic constituents/lattice) effectively is "inelastic scattering"
"Since our work is theoretical and computational it must be still verified experimentally, ...
If the rate of change in frequency over distance *changes over time*Where does *changes over time* phrase appear in the paper? Are you basing your "if" on a conjecture of your own? If so, then not germaine to this study/results?
then this implies that there was *more matter in intergalactic space in early times*. This in turn implies expansion! Oops.The aggregation of matter/medium into galaxies, clusters and filaments would effectively make the medium more 'rarefied in space', not imply 'expanding space' as you have just done without any basis for it.
Alternatively, there is more matter in intergalactic space far from the Earth than close to it. In this case, space is not homogenous; there is an unexplained mass gradient.More conjecture?
FTA:This study involves more tenable physical approach/processes than the pure maths 'inventions' of BB, Inflation, Dark Energy etc; so why should anyone still 'prefer' those and 'ignore' this more reality-based study/results, Whyde? :)"Since our work is theoretical and computational it must be still verified experimentally,Be very careful which star you hitch your wagon to..
And, if you bothered to read the Physical Review, their calculations were for much denser and "non-dispersive" transparent medium, NOT the thinly distributed, weightless (dispersible) mass found in the intergalactic medium.where light momentum would have far less effect...I read the actual paper Whyde (DS linked it earlier). The intergalactic medium has many 'ices' and other transparent particulates that cumulatively constitute a serial interaction situation for this effect to be important over vast cosmic distances. And cold BOSE-EINSTEIN 'condensates' also in space. Ok? :)
Frankly in order to account for redshift increasing with distance with this hypothesis, one would need to show that the effect is sufficient in the extremely low densities in the intergalactic medium. I don't see anything here that looks even remotely like that, either in this article or in the paper. The PI on this paper seems to be making claims that aren't backed up by the paper. I think I'll look into his previous work.Re your doubts re density etc, please see relevant parts of my last post to @Whyde immediately above. Add to that the various clouds of dense inorganic/organic molecular medium effectively frming a translucent cross-section 'path' for any photon making its way through the such cloud from one side to the other and traveling on from that side to the next encounter with whatever medium impart this energy-sapping effect on the photon as it gradually loses energy/ is redshifted accordingly in cumulative process over vast travel distances.
This study is aimed at photons traveling COSMIC distances CUMULATIVELY being sapped of energy as implied/explained; IRRESPECTIVE of intergalactic medium density 'variations' along the TOTAL PATH length.
@RC, I know for a fact you cannot possibly have done the calculations to show the IGM is capable of producing enough redshift to account for what we see; you have made it clear you don't "believe in" math. Knowing that, I have no motivation to read anything you post and neither should anyone else.What is the matter with you, DS? Why the maths demands? The whole point is that we NOW KNOW the intergalactic medium is more dense than ever thought before; and in more diverse 'states' than ever thought before. In THAT MAINSTREAM REALITY CONTEXT, and in the context of what I just posted to Whyde and YOU above, the whole thing is OBVIOUS to any objective observer. Get real, mate.
RC,What? Why split hairs, mate? The point is that those space distances CONTAIN all the necessary medium states/densities; and the photons traveling from far distant cosmic sources traverse that media which cumulatively represents a HUGE 'gauntlet' which said photon has to 'run' and which may sap its energy and variously redshift it between emission and reception, as per this process, no matter where it 'happens' along the way. Ok? :)This study is aimed at photons traveling COSMIC distances CUMULATIVELY being sapped of energy as implied/explained; IRRESPECTIVE of intergalactic medium density 'variations' along the TOTAL PATH length.
The "study" mathematically constructed the effect of photon momentum on a no-dispersable (meaning - dense), transparent (meaning - optically conductive) medium.
To say it is about photons travelling cosmic distances is disengenuous, to say the least...
read this - DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevA.95.063850
... The point is that those space distances CONTAIN all the necessary medium states/densities; and the photons traveling from far distant cosmic sources traverse that media which cumulatively represents a HUGE 'gauntlet' which said photon has to 'run' and which may sap its energy and variously redshift it between emission and reception, as per this process, no matter where it 'happens' along the way. Ok? :)
What do you think happens when a photon strikes an electron-less (NOT transparent) proton?As I pointed out to Benni earlier, this process is subtly different from the usual cases. In that the photon energy-momentum is 'split' between its own photonic 'traveling feature' and the 'traveling atomic mass density feature' described by that study. In other words, its an affect which involves an ensemble of atoms in medium, not just 'isolated impacts' with isolated 'particles', be they neutral particles or ions (as in atomic nucleus/nucleons per your question).
Do you also say a photon will not strike or interact with a specific particle constituent of light/translucent mist/fog? Or that a photon does not interact with a raindrop as it proceeds through a cross-section of that rain?... The point is that those space distances CONTAIN all the necessary medium states/densities; and the photons traveling from far distant cosmic sources traverse that media which cumulatively represents a HUGE 'gauntlet' which said photon has to 'run' and which may sap its energy and variously redshift it between emission and reception, as per this process, no matter where it 'happens' along the way. Ok? :)
You do realize that for reception and re-emission, a direct hit (at the correct E-voltage) is required, don't you?
At that scale of distance, it would be like shooting at carny ducks -
First error I found, or anyway it looks like one:The reader can easily verify that a photon with energy E=ℏω and momentum p=ℏω/(nc) does not fulfill the covariance condition E² - (pc)² = (m[ph]c²)² if the rest mass m[ph] of a photon is set to zero.I'm sorry, why not? I'll need to look further; this might not be wrong, but the author doesn't justify it at this point.
...
Do you also say a photon will not strike or interact with a specific particle constituent of light/translucent mist/fog? Or that a photon does not interact with a raindrop as it proceeds through a cross-section of that rain?
Anyway, I again point out that this study involves interaction with ENSEMBLES of atoms which effectively create a traveling atomic density 'wave.
Ensembles that are electronically bound to each OTHER, first...Haven't you read the many articles/news re discoveries of uncountable quantities/states of material in intergalactic/interstellar medium? There is a huge range, in size/topology/aggregational-boundings etc, of crystalline/amorphous 'dust', some transparent, some translucent, some opaque (and much variously ionized but not 'entirely electron-less'). Also, vast reaches/clouds of hydrogen/helium so cold it forms various kinds of bose-einstein-like 'condensates'. And I haven't even mentioned the innumerable planetary/stellar atmospheres, ionospheres/magnetosheaths etc 'media' in the 'path' of photons from vast distances. So 'ensembles' can range from 'inside' tiny crystals to 'across' vast clouds, and can affect photons going through them, extracting energy as described. Not 'clean' and 'simple'. :)
And it's a point that I've been relaying to YOU, not the other way around...Quit trying to take credit
I'm not buying this effect being strong enough to account for observed redshift. If someone has the math bring it. If I get bored and have the time given my other priorities I may attempt to both find some observation of the extinction ratio over z values, and calculate how much it should be from the known density of the IGM.Bear in mind, this is only ONE way photonic energy may be affected when traveling vast distances.
So redshift may NOT involve just ONE contributory process.
considering the IGM is about 1 proton per cubic meter, while totally ignoring the proven fact that about a dozen micron sized particles exist within every cubic kilometer of space, it's been measured & we know the incidence of micron sized particles striking satellites on interplanetary trajectories.
@RC, I know for a fact you cannot possibly have done the calculations to show the IGM is capable of producing enough redshift to account for what we see; you have made it clear you don't "believe in" math
since uniformity and the universality of physical law militate against it...........there is no such "physical law", you make up stupid stuff because you have already arrived at a conclusion before actually taking into account the provable Laws of Physics. This is just more of your Inferred pseudo-Science of INFERRED GRAVITY features you concoct from Black Hole Math & DM.
Quote Da Schneib:"What's missing here is any evidence that the IGM is a refracting medium."
Could it possibly be light itself from the opposite direction?
Quote Da Schneib: "What's missing here is any evidence that the IGM is a refracting medium."
Could it possibly be light itself from the opposite direction?
...
When a photon hits an IGM & does not transfer energy it is called Elastic Scattering because the collision may result in small change of direction.
Those who believe in the Big Bang theory, believe in the existence of a an expanding
space! But no one is capable of explaining of what is making the expanding space
expand
Answer: The metric coordinate system of the space is growing.
Question: Where is based on?
Answer: It is based on the expanding of the space.
How did God create the universe?
Is that science? Is not?
How does space expand?
So that is later more.
Is that science?
You cant test expanding space.
You cant never proof that something really happening for space!!!
'Multiple exclamation marks,' he went on, shaking his head, 'are a sure sign of a diseased mind.'
-- Terry Pratchett (Eric)
You cant try to get expanding space expanding faster.
OK, I give up, decoding this stuff is like wading through huge vats of snot.
Circulation is most.
Jeffhans1
Jun 30, 2017