"Hence the "no-boundary proposal" does not imply a large universe like the one we live in, but rather tiny curved universes that would collapse immediately"
i have trouble understanding why, if the universe began as a point source, does it look the same in all directions as we look back in time with hubble ?
The universe appears the same in all directions, or flat.
The universe appears the same in all directions, or flat.
If it appears the "same in all directions", how does that describe "flat"? That sounds like terminology in contradiction to one another. There can be no discernment of SHAPE when you see no boundaries.
so far no one has answered my question , if you can look back in time with a telescope and see early galaxies [and i believe they would like to see as far as the edge of the first stars ,say ] , why is there no preferred direction ? ie point source
so far no one has answered my question , if you can look back in time with a telescope and see early galaxies [and i believe they would like to see as far as the edge of the first stars ,say ] , why is there no preferred direction ? ie point source
javjav doesn't answer my question , why is there no point source looking back in time?. So if we look in any direction we see some of the early universe which puts us in the center. In other words a point origin implies a sphere.
There is no discernable point source, that is why the inflationary period was added to the BB theory. The latest twist to the inflationary period is that it also has no discernable point of origin and that it occurred everywhere at the same time.
Lehners and his colleagues are now trying to figure out what mechanism could have kept those large quantum fluctuations in check under the most extreme circumstances, allowing our large universe to unfold.
..scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Gravitational Physics (Albert Einstein Institute/AEI) in Potsdam and at the Perimeter Institute in Canada..
If nothing (including light) can escape a black hole, then how did all the mass of the entire universe flow out of one infinitely small and infinitely dense point?Because it was equally dense everywhere. Imagine you are somewhere in a very dense volume, but density is the same in all directions. You would be floating weightless, not feeling any gravity because all directions cancel each other. To form black holes you need a lump of mass energy that can collapse. Then inflation happened and created differences, but also a much bigger universe preventing the big crunch
Or could our universe be inside a black hole in a larger universeYes that is trending theory, but speculative. Oversimplifying: we are in a white hole, and expansion / dark energy are caused by incoming pressure from the other side. But it requires a higher dimensional black hole, and it does not explain what created the other universe, so this theory can solve not solve the "Origin" problem.
How can something be infinitely curved?It can't. That is why General Relativity equations do not work for t=0 (or t < plank time ).
'Big Bang' deserves a better term; Any proposals?
ShotmanMasio, originally the theory of inflation had it start from a very small point.
https://wmap.gsfc...nfl.html
Imagine living on the surface of a soccer ball (a 2-dimensional world). It might be obvious to you that this surface was curved and that you were living in a closed universe. However, if that ball expanded to the size of the Earth, it would appear flat to you, even though it is still a sphere on larger scales.
'Big Bang' deserves a better term; Any proposals?
So far this is the best definition I have seen:
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
(Terry Pratchett)
i have trouble understanding why, if the universe began as a point source, does it look the same in all directions as we look back in time with hubble ?
@Hyperfuzzy: The velocity of light may be from -infinity to +infinity, i.e. original wavelength divided by measured period...That is totally speculative stuff, and even if it were true you could not use it in such a way. c is not a fundamental constant on itself, as it can be derived from the vacuum permeability, which ultimately defines the speed of interaction between electrical and magnetic fields. That is what defines the speed of "causality" at the very end, then the speed of light follows. Light propagates as an electrical field which produce a magnetic field which produce an electrical field and so on, and the speed of each of those interaction (speed of causality) is the real fundamental value and it is constant, not -infinity to +infinity. Ultimately, it is the only one that can provide true measurements. Of course using c is more practical and it is valid in general, but you can not forget that is just a simplification and it can not be used in the way you do
@Hyperfuzzy: The velocity of light may be from -infinity to +infinity, i.e. original wavelength divided by measured period...That is totally speculative stuff, ...
@Hyperfuzzy: The velocity of light may be from -infinity to +infinity, i.e. original wavelength divided by measured period...That is totally speculative stuff, ...
and your universal constants are wrong
Point in this case is a matter of scale that creates the correct conditions.
How can something be infinitely curved?A point is infinitely curved because it has radius = 0. Every time you touch something the point where they touch is infinitely curved.
"the Big Bang cosmological model of the universe contains a causal singularity at the start of time (t=0), where all time-like geodesics have no extensions into the past. Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical time 0 results in a universe with all spatial dimensions of size zero, infinite density, infinite temperature, and infinite space-time curvature."Infinite space-time curvature perhaps if you take the spacetime singularity as a point. The point at which two existing objects touch. The physical characterstics of a point with infinite curvature or a singularity don't have any meaning that I can see. It's only a mathematical abstraction.
However, anyone consider that this is just a coincidence or illusion?
This research was criticized on Lubos Motls blog:Yeah, and it's a pretty good piece of criticism, too. I'm not even sure I agree that Hartle-Hawking and Vilentkin are the same in the first place, and it's a well-made point that Turok et al. are not paying attention to the point when they only allow one possible solution.
http://motls.blog...tle.html
So take it with a big grain of salt.
@Benni galaxies don't have to orbit anything.......How do you know that? The observational evidence is that all of them do.
Galaxies don't have to be gravitationally bound to anything.......but the observational evidence is that all galaxies are gravitationally bound orbiting one another within clusters, on top of that it appears a cluster can be orbiting another cluster.
Galaxies would only be blue shifted if they happen to be moving towards us.....yeah, I stated that.
The vast majority are red shifted.......and I stated this & explained it as well. What you fail to understand is the point I made that a galaxy moving towards us can be redshifted simply due to photon scattering effects.
@Hyperfuzzy if you think a PhD in physics makes one stupid you are obviously admitting you are a #physicscrank.
Eight to ten years of physics education makes them smarter than you will ever be.
Get over it.
There is no truth pass an MS degree
The math department knows as much, juz math, not scientific or logical.
No, you couldn't. You're dumb as rocks..........so from your experience, tell us, how does it feel to be a rock?
It backfired in the case of your 'belief' in Bicep2
You didn't even stop to consider the flaws as I suggested.Everybody tried to stop and consider the flaws you suggested. But they could not get very far because you would not tell anybody what the flaws you were suggesting were. I know a dozen peoples asked you thousands of times what the flaws were but you never had any suggestions.
I categorized them. If they were even half as good/objective they would have also seen them immediately, as I and others did who were not in thrall to person/source/PhD etc 'reputation' rather than scientific objectivity. Anyhow, I was correct and you/they were wrong. You/they have yet to learn the lesson from it apparently, because you/they still prefer to troll/lie instead of admitting to your/their errors.You didn't even stop to consider the flaws as I suggested.Everybody tried to stop and consider the flaws you suggested. But they could not get very far because you would not tell anybody what the flaws you were suggesting were. I know a dozen peoples asked you thousands of times what the flaws were but you never had any suggestions.
in thrall to person/source/PhD etc 'reputation' rather than scientific objectivityYou're lying again. It has nothing to do with being "in thrall to person/source/PhD etc 'reputation'" and you cannot understand what "scientific objectivity" is because you do not understand consilience. Consilience is the quality of scientific results that transcends individual scientific disciplines. It means that one comes to the same conclusions from, for example, astrophysics as quantum mechanics, or for another example the same conclusions from biology as from thermodynamics. This concurrence of results between widely separate scientific disciplines informs both research and discourse, and you are completely incapable of comprehending it because you cannot speak or understand the common language of science which is mathematics and logic.
It has nothing to do with being "in thrall to person/source/PhD etc 'reputation'" and you cannot understand what "scientific objectivity" is because you do not understand consilience. Consilience is the quality of scientific results that transcends individual scientific disciplines. It means that one comes to the same conclusions from, for example, astrophysics as quantum mechanics, or for another example the same conclusions from biology as from thermodynamics. This concurrence of results between widely separate scientific disciplines informs both research and discourse, and you are completely incapable of comprehending it because you cannot speak or understand the common language of science which is mathematics and logic.As the Bicep2, BB/INFLATION 'claims' and 'peer review' fiascos have demonstrated all too painfully, we can 'define' an objective scientific methodology but apparently you/others will ignore its objectivity principle when 'convenient'. :)
@BouncedRealityCheck is lying about Bicep2 again.Stop 'manufacturing' your own 'reality', DS. The real reality is recorded for posterity. Don't waste time/effort in blandishments to your co-incorrect 'gang' who were as wrong as you have been on many matters/behaviors/posters. The messenger posted a message and 'gang' attacked instead of checking for themselves. That has also been the way in which BB/INFLATION fiasco has been allowed to infect the science literature/teachings/paradigms for decades (only recently Penrose/Steinhardt came clean and admitted they were wrong). You are part of that fiasco, DS. Stop it. :)
You didn't "discover" anything, you were right like a stopped clock is right twice a day and you're lying again. We're still waiting for your "eight criticisms" that you were caught lying about long ago and still cannot to this date enumerate.
Cred to @antialias for making sure @BouncedRealityCheck's claims are held feet to the fire.
still waiting for the famous "eight criticisms" you lied about.Are you totally insensible to how inane and dishonest you are being, DS? Is this what your 'intellect' has been reduced to? How can you look at yourself in the mirror after posting such unconscionable lies and insulting drivel, DS? You are exhibiting the very same disrespect for scientific objectivity and discourse fairness that the protagonists of the above article have been exhibiting by pushing their own 'mathematical theories' barrows at the expense of objective physical reality and common sense. I already posted on the flaws, as have others since. You just ignored. Not going to repeat same to satisfy your time-wasting/trolling tactics.
Bring it #dudebro. Nobody with a brain is watching your reality show, but your site statistics for your decrepit ugly Theory of Nothing website already told you that along with how many ancient browsers you managed to infect this week.
Da Schneib4.2 / 5 (5) 9 hours ago
@BouncedRealityCheck I am not interested in your lies
They can't exist without you.
Like I tell my kids, " We can give you knowledge; but, we can't make you think!"You might give them some tips on how to think. Logically for example. And how their minds can be manipulated. Especially tricky when it comes to things like cause and effect.
Like I tell my kids, " We can give you knowledge; but, we can't make you think!"You might give them some tips on how to think. Logically for example. And how their minds can be manipulated. Especially tricky when it comes to things like cause and effect.
...this paper is nonsense as well as all the comments.The categorical denial. Absolutly essential tool in learning how to shut down the thinking process and push your agenda. For example would all the comments include yours? Think before you tweet, they say.
The space within galaxies is NOT expanding. The expansion refers to the galaxies moving/expanding away from one another. IMO this fact should invalidate the entire expansion theory.
Wouldn't you think that after 13 billion years worth of EXPANSION that all the galaxies would already be so far apart from one another that we wouldn't be able to see them?Right now light travels towards us faster than galaxies move away from us. But it won't last forever. Eventually all the galaxies except ours will disappear from sight.
...we must ignore gravitational lensing as nonsense, ...I believe light is affected by gravity the same as all other particles. Except that higher frequencies are affected more instead of higher masses.
Those who go for the doppler effect REDSHIFT argument are being confronted with Photon Scattering Effect is going on all over the Universe at the same time, and it's causes are attributed to the presence of newly discovered interstellar dust that we previously didn't know existed between galaxies.Interstellar dust would slow down and eventually stop the expansion. Instead the expansion is accelerating.
The space within galaxies is NOT expanding. The expansion refers to the galaxies moving/expanding away from one another. IMO this fact should invalidate the entire expansion theory.I understand the space within galaxies is being sucked up by black holes and spit out into white holes elsewhere in the universe through wormholes. Anyway the expansion is accelerating meaning there must be some kind of force between galaxies to do the acceleration. Also this same force acting within galaxies would be what drives matter into black holes. Or so it seems.
Friction. Or heat dissipation if you prefer.Interstellar dust would slow down and eventually stop the expansion.........how so?
...a galaxy moving towards us can be redshifted simply due to photon scattering effects.
... there isn't enough dust in intergalactic space to matter.So no photon scattering effect?
So... if space is expanding, shouldn't everything else (within it) be expanding along with it? That should be within our capabilities to check...Everything that's not quantized like matter. Hence there's a lot more expansion going on over your head than under your feet.
...Can a black hole explode? Or could our universe be inside a black hole in a larger universe, and the big bang being the instant that the black hole was created in that larger universe? Personally though, I like the idea of a Big Crunch leading to the next Big Bang. Universes following, one after the other.In a way, anytime you have pair creation. Anyway black holes within galaxies merge and radiate gravitational waves. Their ultimate source is the particles generated in pair creation. Since matter and anti-matter are created in pairs, I should think there are also anti-matter black holes out there in roughly equal numbers. Now when matter and antimatter black holes touch as they spiral in, you certainly would get an explosion. A big one. All starting from that point where they touch (call it a singularity if you wish).
So... if space is expanding, shouldn't everything else (within it) be expanding along with it? That should be within our capabilities to check...
we must ignore gravitational lensing as nonsense
Given that light may travel at any velocity
Where?...a galaxy moving towards us can be redshifted simply due to photon scattering effects.... there isn't enough dust in intergalactic space to matter.So no photon scattering effect?
So... if space is expanding, shouldn't everything else (within it) be expanding along with it? That should be within our capabilities to check...Matter is held together by gravity at medium range, and other forces close by. These forces are enough to keep the matter from expanding, but not to keep space from expanding. The universe is filled with filaments of matter, held together by gravity; between the filaments are open voids with not much in them. It's the filaments that are moving away from one another, because they are too far from one another for their gravity to resist the expansion.
Why not?'Cause we looked and it's not.
...a galaxy moving towards us can be redshifted simply due to photon scattering effects.
... there isn't enough dust in intergalactic space to matter.So no photon scattering effect?
Where?Like where there are no galaxies or nebulae?
inflation hypothesis has been proposed just for to explain this isotropy of Universe
The two testable structural consequences of the cosmological principle are homogeneity and isotropy. Homogeneity means that the same observational evidence is available to observers at different locations in the universe ("the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample"). Isotropy means that the same observational evidence is available by looking in any direction in the universe
Are you talking about late-time integrated Sachs-Wolfe effect? If you are it has nothing to do with dust, and if you're not then it doesn't exist except inside galaxies which are very small....a galaxy moving towards us can be redshifted simply due to photon scattering effects.... there isn't enough dust in intergalactic space to matter.So no photon scattering effect?Where?Like where there are no galaxies or nebulae?
Are you talking about late-time integrated Sachs-Wolfe effect? If you are it has nothing to do with dust, and if you're not then it doesn't exist except inside galaxies which are very small.Talking about intergalactic dust which I would presume exists inside nebulae. Unless you classify nebulae as being galaxies.
You can't imagine the universe as filled with galaxies uniformly everywhere. It's just not like that........dead wrong, random uniform distribution is exactly what we do observe, it's called ENTROPY.
Entropy is bullsh t.......well then you be the one who can explain why you're smarter than Einstein? How about yyz, you want to try as well?
...random uniform distribution
Sounds conflicted.
No, nebulae are inside galaxies. The concentration of dust and gas is insufficient in intergalactic space fo form them, mostly. You might find a few outside galaxies, but I'm sure there aren't many.Are you talking about late-time integrated Sachs-Wolfe effect? If you are it has nothing to do with dust, and if you're not then it doesn't exist except inside galaxies which are very small.Talking about intergalactic dust which I would presume exists inside nebulae. Unless you classify nebulae as being galaxies.
Speaking of CMB and Sachs-Wolfe effect: http://nautil.us/...ll-wrong
so far no one has answered my question , if you can look back in time with a telescope and see early galaxies [and i believe they would like to see as far as the edge of the first stars ,say ] , why is there no preferred direction ? ie point source
You can't imagine the universe as filled with galaxies uniformly everywhere. It's just not like that........dead wrong, random uniform distribution is exactly what we do observe, it's called ENTROPY.
Part III: Considerations on the Universe as a Whole, General Relativity
Albert Einstein 97
"If we are to have in the universe an average density of matter which differs from zero, however small may be that difference, then the universe cannot be quasi-Euclidean. ... the theory supplies us with a simple connection between the space-expanse of the universe and the average density of matter in it."
Speaking of CMB and Sachs-Wolfe effect: http://nautil.us/...ll-wrong
Speaking of CMB and Sachs-Wolfe effect: http://nautil.us/...ll-wrongI tried the following post at this site but it didn't make the cut:
so far no one has answered my question , if you can look back in time with a telescope and see early galaxies [and i believe they would like to see as far as the edge of the first stars ,say ] , why is there no preferred direction ? ie point sourceBecause it was the point source itself that expanded, it is everywhere.
so far no one has answered my question , if you can look back in time with a telescope and see early galaxies [and i believe they would like to see as far as the edge of the first stars ,say ] , why is there no preferred direction ? ie point sourceBecause it was the point source itself that expanded, it is everywhere.
Basically everywhere is the center. You can rightfully claim that you are the 'center of the universe' (as can everyone else). It wasn't an explosion (as the term 'Bang' suggests to some). It's an expansion.
Think of it like a squished up sponge expanding: Every part is moving away from every other part, but there is no center from which everything is expanding.
It provides the driver behind the matter-antimatter asymmetry by showing interactions before the Big Bang that provided interactions out of thermal equilibrium, that led to a non-equilibrium Big Bang.Rest assured that there is no thermal equilibrium, or if there was it would be impossible to determine because of the uncertainty principle. The asymmetry would be due to say one quantum fluctuation at the time of baryogenesis. Which, by the way, would have had to occur before inflation because matter/antimatter annihilation is the driving force (along with gravity) behind inflation. In fire-fighting they call it a flash-fire. Or so it seems.
... this was the beginning of the "Hot Big Bang," and the origin of the mass-energy in our universe.
[contd]
Because it was the point source itself that expanded, it is everywhere.At what point does a point become not a point anymore?
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."which might not be straight to the point at hand, but very relevant nonetheless.
Points are discrete mathematical entities which have no real resemblance in physics, and no amount of mathematical "voodoo" (zero multiplied by infinity, zero divided by zero, etc.) will change anything about that. A zero, multiplied by anything, will always be just a zero.
So much for "point source".
A very smart man once said:
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." which might not be straight to the point at hand, but very relevant nonetheless.
Howgh.
Note annihilation still continues as the universe cools. The end effect is essentially galaxies rising out the the ashes and the ashes being essentially regions dominated by matter or antimatter which don't annihilate nearly as much.I think I noted that matter gravitates more strongly during inflation than anti-matter. Because the energy density of matter is higher than that of anti-matter. Anti-matter gravitates just enough to annihilate matter and maintain the plasma density. However the more matter gravitates into bodies the more localized it becomes and the more difficult it becomes for antimatter to find a body to annihilate. And the more thinly the antimatter distribution becomes until it can no longer fuel the necessary annihilation to maintain the plasma density. So when inflation ends the universe is populated with large hot bodies of matter staged to form black holes and galaxies, while antimatter is largely left scattered in intergalactic space. Or so it seems.
Points are discrete mathematical entities which have no real resemblance in physics, and no amount of mathematical "voodoo" (zero multiplied by infinity, zero divided by zero, etc.) will change anything about that. A zero, multiplied by anything, will always be just a zero.
So much for "point source".
A very smart man once said:
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." which might not be straight to the point at hand, but very relevant nonetheless.
Howgh.
Wow! Never yield to sanity, only imagination? Excuse me, Einstein was wrong about imagination, without logic, it's nonsense.
Because it was the point source itself that expanded, it is everywhere.At what point does a point become not a point anymore?
No, actually that's not right, though you are correct in that there can be no thermal equlibrium; you're wrong about the cause. Inflation is inherently adiabatic, which means that during inflation there can be no thermal equlibrium; the uncertainty principle has nothing to do with it.It provides the driver behind the matter-antimatter asymmetry by showing interactions before the Big Bang that provided interactions out of thermal equilibrium, that led to a non-equilibrium Big Bang.Rest assured that there is no thermal equilibrium, or if there was it would be impossible to determine because of the uncertainty principle.
Inflation is inherently adiabatic, which means that during inflation there can be no thermal equlibrium; the uncertainty principle has nothing to do with it.Could be. I'm describing how matter-antimatter asymmetry maintains the intensity of the CMB to within 0.1% I believe it is.
The matter-antimatter asymmetry has nothing to do with the uniformity of the CMB. And the CMB is uniform to a much greater degree than a mere tenth of a percent.Sorry to hear that. Just what degree of uniformity should the intensity of the CMB be?
We measured the isotropy over the whole sky. It's three orders of magnitude smaller than 0.1%.Wow. Wikipedia says the radiation is isotropic to roughly one part in 100,000 which is better than what I've seen. Sure doesn't sound like three orders of magnitude smaller than 0.1% though. Perhaps you did some curve fitting?
https://arxiv.org.../0305591
@Seeker2Sure is. Let's start with one order of magnitude less than 0.1%. What would that be? Then we'll work or way to the next order of magnitude.
Wow. Wikipedia says the radiation is isotropic to roughly one part in 100,000 which is better than what I've seen. Sure doesn't sound like three orders of magnitude smaller than 0.1% though. Perhaps you did some curve fitting?
That darn math is tough 1 / 100000 = 0.00001 X 100% = .0.001% no curve fitting needed. Didn't mean to jump in there DaSchneib.
Points are discrete mathematical entities which have no real resemblance in physics, and no amount of mathematical "voodoo" (zero multiplied by infinity, zero divided by zero, etc.) will change anything about that. A zero, multiplied by anything, will always be just a zero.
So much for "point source".
A very smart man once said:
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." which might not be straight to the point at hand, but very relevant nonetheless.
Howgh.
Wow! Never yield to sanity, only imagination? Excuse me, Einstein was wrong about imagination, without logic, it's nonsense.
Wrong? How? He just said imagination was most important. He didn't specify how to use it...
Meh, the calculator in my head malfunctioned. It's two orders of magnitude... which is still a lot less than what you were talking about, @Seeker.Sounds great! Keep up the good work!
Points are discrete mathematical entities which have no real resemblance in physics,...I should think two objects could touch each other at some point which would have real resemblance in physics. Or so it would seem. Or, for example, the center of mass of an object is at some point. I don't think it could be at 2 points?
At what point does a point become not a point anymore?Points are zero-dimensional, and scale invariant. Ergo, points do not scale.Depends on scale.
Or, for example, the center of mass of an object is at some point.And that's exactly the point where your logic fails.
And that's exactly the point where your logic fails.Perhaps we should put it this way: Just because it's position is uncertain doesn't mean it's not there somewhere at some point. Any problem with that logic?
The energy/matter which constitutes the mass, is not frozen in time. It is in constant motion, and also subject to various degrees of uncertainty (when looked at from the QM perspective).
Perhaps we should put it this way: Just because it's position is uncertain doesn't mean it's not there somewhere at some point. Any problem with that logic?That's just paraphrasing the same idea, so why to expect a different result?
That's just paraphrasing the same idea, so why to expect a different result?Just trying to understand the problem in the logic. But you're right. It didn't seem to help much.
The "problem" remains exactly the same, as already described (although crudely, but sufficiently) in my previous post.Hey uncertainty isn't a bad word. So I'm stuck with the time problem. In the time problem nobody knows what an instant of time is. Perhaps some tick of the cosmic clock? One tick of the cosmic clock could be anything but you'd never know it because your time standard would also experience the same tick. More problems with logic?
If you don't like the QM take (uncertainty), then you still have the classical version (issue with "an instant of time").
While we're on a roll - why is there something rather than nothing? - answer: if there was nothing there would be nobody to ask the question. Right? Actually nothing is a state of certainty and violates the uncertainty principle. But I think we covered that one already.
Remember, nothing is only conceptual, find it!So I looked around and found nothing. Ok?
Remember, nothing is only conceptual, find it!So I looked around and found nothing. Ok?
You didn't try a spectrometer. When you get to zero! Ah! You calibrated to ambient. Well, OK concept. Did I say Einstein was an idiot!No you said DR E was an idiot. Same difference I guess. Did he have a spectrometer?
You didn't try a spectrometer. When you get to zero! Ah! You calibrated to ambient. Well, OK concept. Did I say Einstein was an idiot!No you said DR E was an idiot. Same difference I guess. Did he have a spectrometer?
Anyway, this is Dr. ESo don't get mad get even. Right?
http://www.csun.e...diss.pdf
no magic here, so ...
Hyperfuzzy
Jun 15, 2017