Meanwhile, scientists have yet to tie even a single death to Fukushima radiation and even the most pessimistic predictions of the alarmist linear no threshold statistical models put the number of deaths at low hundreds. Face it, nuclear is the safest way to generate electricity. Wont be long before Japan embraces their nuclear program again, that is unless they want to burn fossil fuels forever.

Waste should be put deep underground where it is safe at least for centuries, until it can be burned in breeders or humanity goes extinct and it wont matter anymore.

You know what a massive spill of solar energy is called? A nice day.

The best time for the switch to safe renewable power is 20 years ago. The next best time is right now.

Meanwhile, scientists have yet to tie even a single death to Fukushima radiation and even the most pessimistic predictions of the alarmist linear no threshold statistical models put the number of deaths at low hundreds. Face it, nuclear is the safest way to generate electricity. Wont be long before Japan embraces their nuclear program again, that is unless they want to burn fossil fuels forever..

That really is the problem with people like you isn't it? Unless it violently kills someone on the spot then it didn't do any harm, right?

Wrong. It's poisoned the entire Pacific Ocean and all the air blowing into North America with dangerous levels of radioactivity.

Just because no one will fall over dead the instant it touches you doesn't mean that you're not going to die a lot sooner than if it didn't.

If you think not dieing on the spot means you're not hurt then I urge you to volunteer to help out with the cleanup.

According to the WHO not a single case of cancer is likley as a result of Fukushima.

Right on top of Dai Ichi the radiation is so low you'd have to camp there 24/7 for 47 days to even have a SLIGHT increased risk of cancer. 300 yards away you'd have no risk at all. Those are the actual facts, and they're available for anyone online. In fact the Japanese have a very useful site which tracks the radiation all over the islands, and it's updated every day. The units are in nano-sieverts so they're a bit onerous to convert, but the information is easily accessed.

http://jciv.iidj.net/map/

Try this one, MM.

http://new.atmc.j...9b07f31c

If you did the conversions your map says the levels are ten times lower than mine at the same place. But since the radiation levels fall off SO dramatically with distance from the main reactor both could actually be correct. We're talking huge differences with only a few meters apart.

Now, MM can go to http://fukushima-diary.com and get some information on the amounts of radiation bleeding into our environment continuously.

Radiation doesn't bleed into the environment. Be more precise in what you're saying so that I know that you know what you're talking about.

Are you talking about Sr 90, or Cs 137/135? What??

Are you talking about Sr 90, or Cs 137/135? What??

Yes. Do not forget Tritium. Nor Americium or plutonium or other Alpha-emitters.

So how much of each of the above is "bleeding" into the environment, at what rate, and from what source. And just to say it up front, Greenpeace isn't a valid source, nor is some activist site that has twenty pop-ups to buy solar panels and windmills...I'm talking about an OFFICIAL source.

You also MUST be specific about what isotope of which element you're talking about as they have VERY different half-lives and hence VERY different risks.

I have data from the Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Public Health, and according to them as of 22 December there is no detectable Cs 134/137, or I 131 in their tap water.

http://monitoring...o.jp/en/

Oh, OK, I'll do your research for you...

http://radioactiv...1215.pdf

Those levels are in Bq/L....now to give you an example the amount of radiation you get from a banana is 31 Bq/g. The figures listed are orders of magnitude lower than what the WHO considers allowable...

http://www.who.in...and2.pdf

page 7.

There's lots of radiation at Fukushima. Drink up!

I'm sure it's good for you, like it's good for GE.

Actually, there's virtually no "radiation" in the water at Fukushima....as is shown clearly from the official source. You literally get more radiation from eating a banana than drinking a liter of seawater at Dai Ichi....

Sorry if you don't LIKE it, or that if it threatens your worldview, but those ARE the facts.

No, those are the "facts" fed to you by those sources you chose. I showed you independent sources. Abe and his government has instituted secrecy laws with draconian penalties, and do not allow negative reports to be issued regarding Fukushima.

You showed me no such thing. You showed me sources that have an obvious bias. If you don't trust government sources then should we ignore the same government sources that tell us radiation in certain levels is unhealthy TO BEGIN WITH?

Have your cake or eat it.

You're getting your information from a crank pseudo science site with an axe to grind, so yea, I'll take the government source thanks.

Oh, so now you trust the guvmunt? Of Japan?

I'll take my experience with the GE Mark I BWR and my utility experience over your assertions.

Is it "too cheap to meter" yet?

So, you're comparing what again? How much electricity from nuclear power plants costs to radiation levels off of Japan???

Really?

Yep, THIS is the guy I'd listen to about what's fact vs. fiction.

How about next we get a comparison of a coat hanger and a giraffe anus and then get an "independent" estimate of the level of BS in gkam's posts.....

Did you google Hanford and babies? Did you look up SL-1, Fermi I, and Monju? Chernobyl?

You know what I DID google, I googled the actual amount of radiation measured at FUKUSHIMA, which is what we're talking about here.

Now, do you have ANYTHING at all other than hyperbole, histrionics, and intentional intellectual dishonest distraction from the subject you want to add?

What do you know about nuclear processes and waste? Want to debate the issues and the specifics? I am hot to do it. Warning: I actually tested the BWR SRV components for the GE Mark I like in Fukushima

Translation: "I was a validation tech, meter-reader, and form filler-outer at a nuclear power plant and this qualifies me to know how they are designed and how they work. In addition I was an engineer without actually having an engineering education, degree or licence, which further qualifies me to spread anti-nuke propaganda written by hippies and tree-huggers with similar qualifications."

You are SO full of shit.

You lie about your qualifications and do not even realize it. And so we can assume you cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction in what you post.

The guy didn't even know tritium wasn't "radioactive water" until I explained it to him...

FYI gkam I can actually write down the fuel cycle of thorium from memory. I know it burns ALL the actinides. I know there is some low level waste that can be safely stored for 300 years. I know that WITHOUT nuclear reactors somewhere in the world there will be NO nuclear medicine, NO RTGs for the space program and a host of other things I can't be bothered to list here.

I also know that since the fuel in molten salt reactors are already in liquid form it's much easier to process the MINISCULE amount of waste they produce as opposed to LWRs that burn less than 1% of the fuel that goes into them and then they pull it out and call it "waste". You haven't a CLUE what you're talking about, molten salt reactors are a completely different technology than you had experience with. How about you exercise that education you say you have and READ about it instead of wallowing in ignorance.

The fact is I have experience with this technology and you do not.

You have experience with molten salt reactors? When and where? With whom?

Didn't think so....

Now to the rest of the nonsense you posted, since it's all emotional and has nothing at all to do with the posted facts that still stand, it's easily ignored as crank emotionalism motivated entirely by a quasi religious irrational hatred. Fukushima is not bleeding radiation anywhere. If it were someone should be able to post some actual data that shows it. They haven't because it doesn't exist.

We've hardly given up on nuclear power, we get 20% of our power from it. Now what's YOUR personal crazy gkam definition of "given up on"? We get 4% from wind...have we given up on it?

Also nuclear is extremely safe power. I challenge you to show statistics from a governmental source (ie not an environmentalist crank site) that shows how many deaths we've had from nuclear accidents compared to...say hydro :)

We have facts and science on our side. You have emotion and Jane Fonda. Good luck in the long run.

Also if you have no experience with molten salt reactors...which you don't, then wouldn't the REASONABLE thing to do is READ about them before you dismiss them?

I dunno, call me crazy, but I thought that's what science and EDUCATION was all about....

Here is a place to start:
http://en.wikiped...n_health

Jane Fonda? I guess she was a big deal to you civilians, but those of us in the war ignored all that, being a little busy at the time. Turns out she was right about all of that, huh?

http://en.wikiped...qiao_Dam

How about a chart that compares them? I have one, but since YOU'RE making the assertion it's dangerous the onus of proof is on you to do your OWN research.

Still waiting for PROOF of your claims...

My facts still stand.

I suggest they go stand on Unit Three, which was fueled with MOX.

Was that supposed to be proof? Have you educated yourself since your last post, or does your ignorance persist?

http://en.wikiped...reactors

Huh, they burn up all the MOX...

The blog isn't a reliable source, your other source shows the radiation in MICRO Becquerels....you realize just how little radiation that is don't you? No of course you don't, your an uneducated blowhard trying to PRETEND you know something.

Your first reference is incomprehensible because they talk about 470,000 terabecquerels being released...but that's a measure of decays/second NOT a measure of nuclides. IOW, they honestly don't know what the hell they're talking about. It's completely meaningless because it has to be in relation to something. What the Ocean? Well there's 1.32 billion trillion liters in the ocean....that really means not that much was released when you do the math, but it's impossible to know because the source you're using is meant to SCARE...not inform.

Okay, we can take it down to one or two points: Read the reference on MOX you sent me, . . the whole thing. Now tell me why it is appropriate for us to work with that deadly stuff

I'd rather use thorium, but I see no issue working with MOX as long as a fast reactor can burn it up given the stellar safety record of the industry as a whole when compared to other forms of power. In case you forgot you STILL haven't provided a comparison....

Mr bullshit artist

More nonsense from outsiders. The view from the sidelines is not usually accurate

Gkam thinks he is an insider because he used the toilet in a nuclear plant. Or the equivalent. What, did you obtain your extensive knowledge by osmosis? You certainly didnt go to school for it like genuine experts.

You stood in a plant for awhile and you think this is enough to understand how they are designed and how they work

You can blab about all the nuclear technologies you want, but should travel to Fukushima, and Chernobyl, and Hanford, and to WIPP first

-All places YOUVE never been you fucking bullshitter.

You are getting your stuff from the folk who tell you what they want you to know

-And youre getting your stuff from mother jones, and your ass.

I apologize for being so combative. I came back from the service with a lack of patience

-And so much more. For instance you think others cant tell when youre bullshitting.

Yes, you can assume anything about me you find comforting: The fact is I have experience with this technology and you do not

We dont have to assume. We can read the lies you post and see you dont care whether they are obvious lies or not. Its enough for you to lie about your training and experience because youre so full of yourself that people are naturally going to believe you anyway, right?

Theyre not. You are a liar. Youve admitted as much many times and despite being called on it, you continue to lie.

Otto, I knew you could not debate the technology, so I opened your post with the foul language. Embarrassing, for a science site.

Do you not understand you have revealed more about your own character than mine?

Pros curse a lot. You would know this if you were one. Sometimes its the only way to accurately express their disgust.

Embarrassing for a science site to have someone claiming to be a pro who is allowed by so many mutual buttrubbers to get away with it.

Youre no engineer. You have no engineering perspective on how nukes work. Quit lying about your qualifications and using it to justify the bullshit you post.

I knew you could not debate the technology

Well neither can you without lying through your teeth. For instance

"I'd rather use thorium, but I see no issue working with MOX, . . ."

Then do it. Those who tried it are giving it up

But youve been shown this before:

"India has one of the largest supplies of thorium in the world, with comparatively poor quantities of uranium. India has projected meeting as much as 30% of its electrical demands through thorium by 2030."

-Along with many other countries.
http://en.wikiped...projects

-Ergo, youre a liar and a fraud.

The topic is Fukushima and the GE Mark I BWR, and the fact that events which were "impossible" occur relatively frequently, putting the entire world at risk

No the topic is whatever you choose to bullshit about. You chose to bullshit about your qualifications (you have none.) You chose to bullshit about thorium, which you know nothing about; easy to demonstrate.

But I was a Research Engineer

You were NEVER any fucking engineer you liar. Your job shop gave you a fancy title to make you feel good.

You've never denied any of these conclusions. Why not? Because they're true. WHAT WAS YOUR MS IN? Nothing relevant - another obvious conclusion.

What a piece of shit you are.

Did you see China Syndrome?

BAHAHHAhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahah.....omg thanks for that one.

Yeah, I KNEW someone at some point would bring that MOVIE up as some kind of point to something somewhere. So, now it's not your "EDUCATION" you're relying on, it's Hollywood....nice.

Too bad the reactor in the movie isn't the kind we're talking about with using thorium, but you know that if you actually cared to discuss or learn anything.

And FTR the kind of reactor they DID use in the movie has a STELLAR safety record compared to other power plants...that is one of those inconvenient facts you never pay attention to.

I guess you are unaware that movie contained actual events, all put together in that movie? The technical advisors were GE Nuclear engineers, who had the mockup of the control room and the events from reality.

Next, you are going to tell me there is no pool swell problem or hydraulic shock from SRV operation in BWRs. And Fukushima and Chernobyl are still operating cleanly.

Actually I'm still waiting for your "proof" that Fukushima is "bleeding radiation" into the environment and to stop changing the subject....as entertaining as pointing out your errors is. Either way it's all good to me. Merry Christmas BTW (no sarcasm, sincerely) :)

All you have to do is look it up.

But I am sure that radiation is good for us!

I did look it up, you just didn't look at it...

ALL of the tests done in the seawater around Fukushima, and ALL of the measurements around Fukushima (except for right on top of the reactor) are perfectly safe...and that INCLUDES the source you posted yourself.

Those continue to be the undisputed facts. If anyone has another legitimate source, please post it.

http://new.atmc.j...9b07f31c

Thank you.

That shows a rate of 10.5 microsieverts/hour. Now there's about 8,760 hours in a year. If you multiply the two you get 91,980 microsieverts/year exposure. If you convert this to millisieverts you get 91.98 millisieverts /year. One must be exposed to 100 millisieverts per year to have ANY increased risk of cancer...period. This falls UNDER that limit, AND it's right on top of the reactor.

Now, were you trying to demonstrate how SAFE the area is, or how "dangerous"?

"One must be exposed to 100 millisieverts per year to have ANY increased risk of cancer...period."
---------------------------------------

Uh, . . no. They are not all alike. The 5.4 MeV particle from an Alpha emitter such as plutonium causes cancer in unprotected tissue. The particles they found over 160 km away were Plutonium, and there is no doubt many folk inhaled it. Look for a tsunami of cancers soon. BTW, look up the worldwide increases in thyroid cancer in kids.

First of all if they aren't alike then why did you post the link?

If you're trying to show how dangerous the area is then POST a link that includes information on actinides, because what you POSTED shows safe radiation levels.

Also radiation damage is CUMULATIVE...IOW your link is valid without the information on actinides because, if you knew anything about biology (which is MY field), a single 5.4 MeV particle will not give you cancer.

(cont.)

You ALSO need to include which isotope of plutonium you're hysterical about, because some of them don't even EMIT alpha particles as they decay...but why would I expect YOU to know that....

"if you knew anything about biology (which is MY field), a single 5.4 MeV particle will not give you cancer."
------------------------------------

If biology is your field, then you know it is a numbers game. What does a 5.4 Million Electron Volt particle do to DNA?

If it actually hits it...it damages it, but that doesn't automatically mean CANCER. It means you get damaged DNA that probably does NOT cause cancer. It's an accumulation of damage that can cause cancer.

Again, your post shows a safe level. Thanks for proving my point.

At Raychem, we made heat-shrink plastics and wire insulation using 0.5 to 3.0 MeV electron beams. I promise you they are deleterious to living tissue.

Assuming they actually hit anything as they pass through your body, and assuming they hit DNA, and assuming they hit the right spot on the DNA, and assuming that enough of the right spots have been hit on a specific strand of DNA, then yes you can have a problem. We get bombarded by cosmic rays ALL THE TIME that are more energetic. It's all about probability and exposure. Your source shows no problems with either.

Weasel words. We KNOW radiation causes cancer, and there is no question about it.

Indeed we do. We also KNOW what a safe level is and isn't. You've not demonstrated levels that cause cancer...period.

There are Monazite beaches in Brazil which will give you 800 mSv/a, which gives you a statistically increased (albeit low) chance of cancer and which are 8 TIMES what you posted that kids play on every single day....

Be pissed at the Brazilians of you wanna rail against radiation...

Looked into the rash of thyroid cancers?

Gimme an official source...not a site filled with hysterics with axes to grind....

MM, we have the numbers tied to exposure to radionuclides. I'll try to look it up. When working on the Industrial Hardening Manual, I kept up on these effects, but that was in 1979.

Don't bother. We've refined our numbers a LOT since the 70s. The maximum recommended exposure for workers is about 50 mSv/a, and we also know (empirically know) that anything less than 100 mSv/a doesn't cause cancer. We err on the side of caution as we should. When you post those links you should be aware that you are talking about MINISCULE doses of radiation....I'm talking VERY minimal. There are places in Iran that naturally give you 130 mSv/a and there is no statistical difference in their cancer rates than anywhere else.

Seriously bud, if you have the energy to spend on it I encourage you to read about it, but you're just plain wrong that it's dangerous.

http://en.wikiped..._effects

Is it "too cheap to meter" yet?

This often misused quote was originaly said about fusion power, not fission.

https://en.wikipe...to_meter

Otto screams: "You were NEVER any fucking engineer you liar. Your job shop gave you a fancy title to make you feel good. What a piece of shit you are."
---------------------------------------------

Unable to debate the topic, otto reveals his character.

Gkam, unable to refute the arguments against him, makes up lies about his past because he thinks people will be impressed enough To ignore hiss lies about thorium, and plutonium raining down on Idaho.

When you find out I really did all those things while you drove your taxi, are you going to get nastier?

I say again - NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. Understand? Most people here have better qualifications than the ones you invent for yourself.

You come off as a braggart and a liar, not an authority. WHY is this so hard for you to understand? Are you senile?

I will add something to the discussion gkam, but I only do so AFTER it appears reason and facts are beginning to rule the discussion between you and I.

It's important to say that during the initial phase of the accident you didn't want to be ANYWHERE near reactors one and two. The radiation levels were actually ABOVE 10 sieverts per hour...that's a 100% fatal dose. Forget cancer, you'd be dead in a few days to a week at those levels unprotected.

It's also important to say that if the operators of the plant would have just LET the safety systems work instead of bowing to political pressure to "do something" the explosion very likely would NOT have happened and there would have been almost no release of nuclides to the environment. When they doused the plant with seawater it created hydrogen which in turn BLEW UP (as is common for hydrogen) and allowed the "SPENT FUEL" to be exposed to the environment. (cont)

(cont) it also quenched the core in a geometric configuration which actually ALLOWED fission to continue. If they would have just let the damn thing completely melt down the molten core would have poured out to the boron moderated water at the base of the containment vessel and fission would have STOPPED. No hydrogen, no explosion, just a building you have to avoid like the plague for a few months.

The reason I mention this is because it's important to point out that these accidents ARE dangerous, and can be made WORSE by public fear and reaction. More people died in the unnecessary evacuation than have even a remote chance of getting cancer from anything connected to the plant.

MM, The Hydrogen is generated not by the sea water, but the high-temperature reactions with the zirconium cladding and the steam when the rods are uncovered.

Indeed, which is my point. If there is no water, there is no hydrogen and hence no explosion.

And the "damn thing" did melt down, and had eaten its way through meters of concrete and steel, and is now a few inches from the Earth.

Bud, you need to really start HEARING what I say. I already said that when they quenched the DAMN THING it was still in a geometric configuration that allowed fission to CONTINUE...which is why it was able to eat as far as it did. When you allow it to melt down without the benefit if idiotic bureaucrats it does so in a fashion that "dribbles" to the floor and allows the core to be sufficiently spread out as to not allow fission to continue.

You do realize that it's actually HARD to get the core to fission...right? (cont)

Fission is kind of like a fire burning. If you spread out the logs then the fire burns out (ever build a campfire?). Fission doesn't occur naturally except in the core of the Earth where everything is held TOGETHER in proximity. Those neutrons have to be nice and cozy with fissile material in order to be of any use in making power. When you spread out fissile material over even a small area none of it is close enough (especially when it's in water moderated with boron) to allow for a chain reaction...in short you just have actinides in water slowly decaying and at (relatively) low temperature...nothing that will eat through concrete.

The cores got uncovered, they started melting and undergoing steam-zirconium reactions generating hydrogen.

If there was no quenching, and the cores were uncovered...where the hell did the water come from for the steam necessary for the reaction???

You understand what steam is right?

They DID pour sea water in in an attempt to cool off the cores, when they did it it was in the process of a meltdown which wouldn't have caused as big a problem as when they poured water on the thing and it re-solidified in a geometric shape that allowed fission to continue.

The bureaucrats $%$$ED UP...badly.

On edit: Also understand you don't HAVE to put this out like a fire..all you have to do is let the material spread out and the reaction STOPS...period.

The water was already in the reactor vessel, in the cooling loop, too.

If the core was uncovered none of it was still steam. Have your cake or eat it.

It did not require sea water for the meltdown and the H2.

Now try to HEAR what I actually say vs. what you THINK I'm saying...

Meltdowns require no water. We agree on that. Explosions DO require water OVER the core to produce steam and hydrogen. IF you let a core get uncovered...and LET it melt down without trying to quench it with more water, it's IMPOSSIBLE to get hydrogen in the containment vessel. Moreover, as long as you have water in the bottom of the vessel (preferably moderated with boron like all western reactors are) the core will stop fission as it spills out. This is because it isn't close enough to other fissile material to sustain a reaction. It's actually VERY easy to understand, but apparently not easy enough for Japanese politicians...

I think your problem is that you don't understand that geometry is very important in this situation. There is a big difference between a semi-square/sphere and a puddle...

Specifically in this case the difference of thousands of degrees of heat because in the former case you're still getting a fission reaction and in the latter you aren't....

fascination with my veracity will be rewarded eventually with an indentity

NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.

Everybody's job is harder than it looks to outsiders, and I am sure otto's cab is not an easy drive

Everybody here knows I am a retired professional with a real degree and a real licence. You on the other hand are none of those things.

And still you continue to LIE about them.

How come? Why make claims about yourself that are easy to disprove? What makes you think these add to the veracity of the facts you post? Cant you resist LYING about yourself? What makes you think that a compulsive neurotic is easier to believe than someone who is relatively sane?

denigrate him for not having a real job.

Youre 70 years old. You havent worked in years. You crapped out as a 'consultant' because thats all you had left.

And now youre here bragging about degrees you dont have and things you never did despite being exposed as a fraud.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I think without the insertion of control rods, the core will overheat without water. In GE Mark I vessels, the rods must be inserted from below, using power. If the core is uncovered, it will melt down. Not a safe system.

Of course it will melt down without water, but that wasn't an option at Fukushima...the core was already uncovered....damage done. They actually made it WORSE by trying to quench the core before it was out of a geometrically fissile configuration. The reason for control rods is exactly the same principle of core geometry. The core, by definition, can't be too spread out or the reaction stops. If you insert rods in the core it stops the reaction because it's absorbing the neutrons. if the core is too spread out, the neutrons can't reach another fissile atom and hence the reaction stops.

Sometimes it's better to do nothing....

molten materials drop to the bottom of the reactor vessel, they can and do assume conditions which can crate secondary fissions, secondary and uncontrolled crticalities.

No they can't...unless they have been solidified in a critical geometry before they hit the water at the bottom of the vessel. These materials aren't critical by "magic"...it only happens if they are close to each other in the proper geometry. It's an EXTREMELY deliberate process that doesn't "just happen" when the stuff spills out all over the place.

All I see is a nasty man with a foul mouth, accusing others of what he would do in similar circumstances.

I is real, otto

Youve proven yourself to be a liar and a fraud. THAT is what is real.

but we do not know about you, . . . except for your very unprofessional mouth.

Tell you what, . . we can identify ourselves, . . what'cha say?

The people here know that WHO WE ARE has nothing to do with the FACTS we post. Only a self-centered moron would think otherwise.

Like I SAY, NOBODY GIVES A SHIT who you are or what youve done. Who you are has nothing to do with what you post, especially when it is easy to expose as nonsense.

Further, like an ass youve already offered to expose yourself but then you lied your way out of it. More evidence that you are nothing BUT full of shit.

You post new bullshit every day. You didnt understand mm's point about H2 from seawater and so you tried to bullshit your way out of it. Didnt work.

" but it did happen in several places. It occurred at TMI II, and at all three Fukushima reactors. I guess it is not so remote after all.

Jesus Christ! I already said we knew how it happened at Fukishima. It's because they...and listen closely puuulllllleeeease....they quenched it in a geometrically critical configuration!

What the HELL have we been talking about?!

As far as three mile island; exactly what I said would happen did. 1/3 of the fuel was released to the plenum and natural cooling was established. IOW the core became sub-critical because enough of it melted away.

Sorry, but damn man, sometimes you really have trouble following a line of reasoning....

otto, I knew you were too SCARED to do it

You mean like the gutless coward who offers to do it and then doesnt? The gutless coward who pretends to be someone he's not because hes afraid his arguments cant stand by themselves?

And did you ever have a mother? Who taught you to speak like an uneducated clown, with filthy words to cover the lack of knowledge?

-says the ass who lies about his qualifications to cover up for his lack of knowledge.

Gkam thinks Im wrong because I use naughty words? Youre lies are much more obscene and offensive sir.

And did you ever have a mother? Who taught you to speak like an uneducated clown, with filthy words to cover the lack of knowledge?

Asked and answered!

gkam -
Do you really want to give personal information to Otto?
He would reject it and use it against you, like he has already done to many others.

I see the only day you didn't post this year was Christmas, Otto. Hmmmmm.

Mommy drag you to grandmas house again? To learn more self-righteous potty mouth?

Went to Church perhaps?

You're a disgrace.

MM, I disagree with your notion of the cores being "solidified in a critical geometry". They were not solidified at all, but liquified by the 5,000 degree C events.

They were...until someone dumped seawater on them, produced copious amounts of hydrogen, and then blew the roof off of buildings containing spent fuel which contaminated the surrounding area with nuclides. Thankfully it wasn't much, and the short half lives of the most potent isotopes made the area safe in relative short order. Some of the best evidence that a criticallity accident happened was the observation of neutron beams that ionized the air around the reactor. This has ONLY been observed in the presence of strong ionizing radiation. It was observed at Chernobyl, two fatal Manhattan project experiments, and as a matter of course in the cores of nuclear reactors. So, it's the best explanation given the evidence.

NONE of that happened at TMI where the engineers were listened to.

otto, I was looking up some GE BWR references to show what we worked on in the late 1970's. I only wrote the interim report, "Small-scale Quencher Screening Tests", but could only find others, and some references to the NASA reports we did on graphite materials and their dangers

WHO GIVES A SHIT? Even if true it adds no weight to the crap you post. You were a validation tech. You were NEVER an engineer no matter what your job shop told you.

Maybe if you were not too scared to reveal your own experience, I could put my statements into language you understand

Oh sorry I dont speak bullshit.

But you have to stop this silly fascination with me personally, and look into the factors of which I warn you.

Stop lying about your qualifications and experience and I'll be happy to.

I treat any lying bullshitter here exactly the same way.

Hi there little ass-pimple!

see the only day you didn't post this year was Christmas, Otto. Mommy drag you to grandmas house again?

-This from the infant whose biggest thrill is to show up to 1/5 me every day, of every week, of every month, for the last - what? - 3 years is it? My, time does fly when youre completely impotent doesnt it?

To learn more self-righteous potty mouth

ESTEVANS CHARACTER: "to fuck your mother Otto" "son of a dead smoking whore" "Otto leckt seiner toten Mutter rauchigen Geruch Genitalien"..."Why are you looking for pussy, darling? U KNOW you only love to suckee on me." "Have you quit fucking your dog yet?" "Ignorant bed-wetter"

You're a disgrace

-says the apparent CEO of the only CNC shop in oregon that makes lower receivers for AR15s. With 48 employees. Says the guy who gave up debating me because he couldnt control his emotions and ended up exposing his family, his company, his customers, and his employees to scrutiny.

Disgrace?

Good point. I was about to do so, to shut him up, but he would zero into some small item and make a big deal about his misrepresentation of it

Yeah and youre a liar, we've already established that. Give it to stumpy like you said.

Not that it would mean anything, because it doesnt. Thats obvious to everyone but you. How come?

In the meantime, explain what your MS is in and why its relevant to anything youve discussed. Explain how filling out validation forms makes you an engineer. Explain how your job shop can make you an engineer just by giving you a title with that word in it.

Explain how delivering powerpoint presentations prepared by real experts qualifies you to be one. And explain how being a 'consultant' and generating 0 income makes you employed.

At least refute these obvious conclusions. Can you do that?

A few quotes from Otto -
"I say again - NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
You are SO full of shit.
WHO GIVES A SHIT?
You were NEVER any fucking engineer you liar.
-All places YOUVE never been you fucking bullshitter.
-And youre getting your stuff from mother jones, and your ass.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Oh sorry I dont speak bullshit
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT. NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
Disgrace?"

Yes, Otto. You are a disgrace.

"My, time does fly when youre completely impotent doesnt it?" - Otto

My goodness, what a revealing question!

Yes otto you're a disgrace

Oh I forgot - estivan pays little girls 5 cents to stalk otto and downrate him. And enjoys bragging about it.

experience, not Absolute Truth we are relating

If that were true you wouldn't have to make up lies about your past would you? But you're only here to talk about yourself. Facts are optional.

You want to start over? Admit that you've been lying about being an engineer. Stop using 'airman' for 'mechanic' and 'engineer' for form filler-outer and 'consultant' for PowerPoint jockey. Stop making up lies about plutonium and thorium.

Want more?

None of thats relevant. Most is inflated. Have people here shown any interest whatsoever? Of course not.

If I want to know about the X15 I go to the wiki page which was contributed by real experts, not mechanics with inflated opinions of themselves.

When is the nuclear industry going to clean this up? The answer is, they can't.

Yet, they keep on building more, enabled by the politicians they own.

Where did you get the info on thorium being abandoned worldwide?

Keep your eye on Georgia Power, which is building two AP1000 Nuclear Turkeys. It required US to guarantee the billions of dollars in loans to do it. So much for eliminating subsidies to loser technologies.

Those monsters are ridiculous: Look into their design. They think when they melt down, a big hat of water on them will "put it out"?? Do they not understand water is a moderator, letting the fast Neutrons slow down enough for capture and more fission?

I suppose this is how they might look to laymen and activist/hobbyists. But not to engineers and scientists who understand how they are designed and how they operate.

How about that thorium? Provide a source please.

I read that you said it was being abandoned. Which isn't true.

"Research and development of thorium-based nuclear reactors, primarily the Liquid fluoride thorium reactor, (LFTR), MSR design, has been or is now being done in the U.S., U.K., Germany, Brazil, India, China, France, the Czech Republic, Japan, Russia, Canada, Israel and the Netherlands.[13][15] Conferences with experts from as many as 32 countries are held, including one by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) in 2013, which focuses on thorium as an alternative nuclear technology without requiring production of nuclear waste.[31] Recognized experts, such as Hans Blix, former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, calls for expanded support of new nuclear power technology, and states, "the thorium option offers the world not only a new sustainable supply of fuel for nuclear power but also one that makes better use of the fuel's energy content."

How many nuclear "hobbyists" do you know

Well you for one. You talk like a hobbyist. For instance you start out with an incendiary question:

How did Plutonium get 130 km away from Fukushima?

-and then proceed with a lot of unwarranted, unsubstantiated speculation. Did you look for an explanation from experts? No. Would you have understood it if you did? No. Because you're not trained to do so.

But this lack of training enables you to speculate because you're blissfully ignorant of the amount of effort needed to understand.

No I'm not going to waste time researching to disprove you. MM and others have done so but you're oblivious to evidence.

As far as parts of the vessel being blown 130km away, do you have a source for that? How far is Idaho from Fukushima?

Gosh, otto,if you are not trying to disparage my character, it appears you have nothing to say.

Want the references to the Plutonium? The German trials with Thorium? References to the Georgia Vogtle plants? References to what? Tell me,. so we can get it straight.

Don't run away!

I read the wiki page. Did you read my quotes? Many countries are pursuing this. It's far from being abandoned as you said.

And absolutely, you need to reference what you say because your cred is nil.

You claim to be an expert as the basis for your unsubstantiated opinions. Disproving your expert status is an easy way of discrediting those opinions. For starters, reference the vessel parts being 130km away from the explosion.

If you don't want personal attacks, stop posting obviously false personal info. Nobody else does. Can't you resist your compulsions?

" For starters, reference the vessel parts being 130km away from the explosion."
----------------------------------------------------

http://fukushima-...rconium/

I have others, if you wish to read them.

Sorry, a single '2μm diameter particle' is dust, not a 'part'. 'Parts' implies an explosion capable of throwing macroscopic objects that far. Something entirely different, as any expert would tell you. Dust is carried by prevailing winds. 'Parts' is no doubt a translation error from the original Japanese.

The fact that you fall for such incendiary anti-nuke propaganda further indicates your amateur status.

If you want to actually discuss these technologies and what I learned from all those years, we can do that, but not personal attacks

You didn't 'learn' them. Learning them is going to school, studying, taking tests, earning a degree, and gaining experience as a professional.

You 'learned' them as a hobbyist, by hearing rumors, skimming through a few manuals perhaps, watching a documentary or 2 (written by amateurs) and reading screeds like the 'Fukushima watch' website. Actually being on a site doesn't mean you know anything about it.

What does being an X15 mechanic have to do with knowing anything about nukes? You weren't even that, we're you?

http://http://www.helmholtz-muenchen.de/iss/highlights/highlight-ag1/index.html

"Airborne Plutonium and Non-Natural Uranium from the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Found at 120 km Distance a Few Days after Reactor Hydrogen Explosions"

Go to some of the offers I made many posts above above, and let's discuss them.

Right. Nothing in there about 'parts'. Let's discuss why you don't know the difference between dust and parts, or why you would read '2μm diameter particle' and not think dust.

That's pretty rudimentary gkam. Somebody with an adequate education would know the difference. YOU DONT.

Toots, I was a communications tech, as I said. I was in certain places doing things I was assigned to do, and learned what I related to you. Apparently, you do not even read my posts.

Wait until I tell you how I got to personally and professionally piss off Chuck Yeager.

Irrelevant. Nobody cares. I saw somebody throw an egg at the president. Does that mean he knows anything about politics?

Explain why you don't know what '2μm diameter particle' means. You know anything about fallout at all?

Here is the download link for the report.

http://www.helmho...961w.pdf

Theres nothing in there about parts being blasted 120km from the site. Answer the question; why don't you know the difference between dust and parts?

That does not answer the question. WHY did you say that PARTS were blasted 120 from the site?

I didn't have to read the pdf as I know that no reactor vessel or fuel rod PARTS were found 120km away from the explosion, which is what you said. Isn't it?

YES, otto, those bits were part of Unit Three, fueled with MOX, spiked with Plutonium.

What did you expect, cams and gears?

Well that's what parts means isn't it? Shards, slivers, shrapnel.

Those particles were RESPIRABLE!

OMG! Irrelevant. No massive explosion capable of hurling PARTS for 120km. Which is what you were selling before I corrected you.

"OMG! Irrelevant."
----------------

No, otto, most relevant. A camshaft is big enough to see and have picked up, while the particle is small enough to lodge in the lung, without the protection of the outer epidermis. That big 5.4 MeV emitter can only really hurt us from the inside.

otto,you are making things up, not understanding the important factors in radiation protection.

True. So why did you lie about the parts flying through the air for 120km? Did you think people wouldnt check?

Why did you lie about plutonium in idaho and thorium?

See, at some point you start to lie about what you said, which were themselves lies, and carp about your 'experience' in order to try to gloss over your lies. Because youre far too intelligent and interesting and experienced not to know what you are talking about. Right?

What makes you think this isnt obvious? Because you are very good at lying to yourself?

Just wondering how many millions of gallons of diesel fuel does an 'average' nuclear power plant use on a daily basis? In the US nuclear plants are required by law to run their backup diesel generators about 40 hours per month, just as a precaution to make sure they run and are in working order, and Fukushima Daishi had 13 of those generators. These are the size of two story houses, each generator, so not your garden variety, and so they obviously use large amounts of diesel on a daily basis, would anyone have that figure or know the answer to the amount of CO2 each nuclear power plant produces? A bit off topic.

When is the nuclear industry going to clean this up? The answer is, they can't.

Yet, they keep on building more, enabled by the politicians they own.

When are they going to clean up monzonite beaches that are 8 times more radioactive than anywhere in Mutsu province, that people regularly visit, that people live around without getting massive increases in cancer incidence. This is hysteria amplified by ignorance with a dash of political intransigence.

If you break a glass on your floor most people think sweeping it up is sufficient...even if there is a small risk that you didn't get it all. Others break out the hoover and really go over it well. Still others hire a professional cleaning service to be SURE they get every little last speck...and hysterics; like the environmental movement REQUIRE that you tear the house down and rebuild it to preclude ANY possibility of anyone stepping on a sliver of glass. NO, I'm not exaggerating.

otto thinks "part" of the fuel rods means an engine block, I guess. Sorry otto, it was only Plutonium. And did you look up the 2.5 limits in air pollution?

Gkam thinks throwing random facts around will make him look knowledgable. But when he says

How did Plutonium get 130 km away from Fukushima? It included parts of reactor vessel

-we know he's not very much so. 'Only plutonium' -? Do you think reactor vessels are made of plutonium??

Do you know the differences between

I know where to look them up as do you. And I know the difference between 'parts' and dust. You should have looked that one up.

Come on, otto, you have insufficient education

Well I admit that freely. Admit that you have NO formal education in nuclear-related fields.

So you accuse me of having your character.

Admit that you read the article you referenced about parts flying 120km away, and didn't realize it was fallout. Come on, be a man.

This "accident" was HUGELY amplified by bureaucratic incompetence. All western reactors are designed to be passively safe. If they would have behaved rationally this would have been no more a problem than three mile island. As it stands any people who lived within about 20 km of the plant would receive an annual radiation dose that would give them statistically a ZERO percent chance of getting cancer....

Ask the Russians how many people live in the exclusion zone around Chernobyl (which is about as bad as an accident can get)....then ask them how many of them have cancer.

In contrast ask the CHINESE how many people have cancer in the villages surrounding the major rare Earth processing centers of the country that we use to power our "green" wind turbines and solar cells...

Oh, and gkam what isotope of plutonium are you going on about? In what levels specifically? And from which official source are you getting your information?

Oh, I see, you got it from a crank site...well at least they show that there are no harmful levels...

Pu was calculated as (130±21) nBq/m3

There is 33Bq/g in a BANANA...much less a cubic meter of air.

See, people like this put out numbers as if they are scary...assuming no one will actually look up what they mean.

On edit: OMG correction...their measurements are in NANO Bq...which is a BILLIONTH of a Bq....yeah I'm surprised and skeptical that they were even able to measure that above background.

On edit edit; I'm actually laughing here...they SERIOUSLY put out those figures for everyone to see...NANO Bq. That is less harmful...LESS harmful than eating a sliver of a banana a day.

And MM thinks all disintegrations are the same, no Gamma, Beta or Alpha factors need be weighed. You folk are SO eager to take shots, you blow your own "theories". Go to a reputable nuclear site, not affiliated with the industry.

Quite honestly at BILLIONTHS of a Bq...it DOESN'T matter one nit...You're talking levels FAR below background. Besides if you BOTHERED to read your own source it actually DOES weigh the differences in alpha and beta decay (I dare you to show me a source that says PU in any form has GAMMA decay)...because they conveniently added SV/Bq in the chart....READ IT.

THAT is a fact. THAT is science. What you're peddling here is FEAR and emotionalism...

I suggest a vacation in Fukushima, so they can see for themselves what happens with this technology they seem to love at a distance.

Actually an intelligent person with the capitol to spare should be buying up that land for pennies on the thousands of dollars when people finally come to their senses about just how low the radiation levels are.

Hasn't it even penetrated your narrow view of the world in the SLIGHTEST that you can't provide ONE SINGLE credible source that says there's dangerous levels of radiation?

You can hand wave all you want, but the FACT is that you can't provide a SINGLE source to back up your...well quite FRANKLY your LIES.

I don't know what else to call you at this point but a liar. I don't like to make such accusations, but you continually fail to produce your claims and you continually refuse to modify your position even when faced with irrefutable facts. You're either a liar or COMPLETELY unwilling or unable to learn.

On edit: As for the corium...well it wouldn't be a problem if the idiot (yes IDIOT) bureaucrats wouldn't have interfered and quenched it in a geometrically critical state. We have no such problems at TMI....

Even so, even after they blew up a building and blasted actinides all over the landscape, AND possibly still have some critical corium in the building the radiation levels are safe...DESPITE all that...

If you say no, I will give you the references you cannot ignore.

No.

The levels from Chernobyl and above ground testing are well known and FAR below anything dangerous...JUST like Fukushima...

Detailed here;

http://en.wikiped...adiation

14.658�ĽSv/h is the current reading. Want to live there?

Actually YES, that's LOWER than the background in Ramsar Iran, and there has been no statistically significant deviation in cancer rates there....period.

If I show you the Corium has eaten its way through the steel-reinforced concrete and is now only inches from the Earth and the Water Table, will you be concerned?

Have we seen any evidence of ionizing radiation since the first few months?

Lest we forget the corium would NOT be a problem if the safeties of the plant were ALLOWED to function.

Can any of you technical experts tell me about reactor types and their history? Let's get it on!

Actually yes, I can. Can YOU tell us about NEW reactor technology and how it actually functions?

Well, I am sure glad you outsiders are so convinced about the safety of nuclear technology, never having worked with it, or even seen one up close. And those areas are so safe, they are being filled up with people right now, . . . oh, . . they're not?

Can I send you photos of Chernobyl children? Look up those words, and be embarrassed.

You can squawk all you want. Unless you have facts to back it up you're simply appealing to emotion.

The FACT is that every SINGLE source you posted shows safe levels of radiation. The only source that doesn't is the one I PROVIDED and that one spot is right on top of Dai Ichi....and even THAT is still lower than a beach in Brazil.

Yes. Let's get it on!

I'm waiting for a specific concern or question...

In lieu of that I think that they have an EXCEPTIONAL operational record...unless a tsunami hit's them and bureaucrats are allowed to dictate safety procedures...DESPITE those events the area surrounding the planet is perfectly safe...

Alpha, Beta, and Gamma are NOT alike.

Never said they were. DID I.

Now kindly quit putting words in my mouth and answer the FACTS.

I DO have a specific question for you...what are the operating principles and differences between LWRs and MSRs

We will not solve anything here but education. You will get it.

I have "got it", it's you that can't face numbers and facts.

Here they are once more...

The facts are that, excluding the building that Dai Ichi is housed in, radiation levels in ALL of the surrounding area are below those which cause an increased risk in cancer in humans. That nuclear power is extremely safe, and that new reactor designs will not only burn up all the current "waste" we have, but will produce LESS high level waste than if we got FUSION reactors online...

Your assertion of Bequerels assumes they are all alike. They are not.

I'll bite, show me a source that says nano Bq are dangerous. We're talking about alpha and beta decay here...and even IF we were talking about gamma it's still safe. You WON'T do that though, because you don't want to be CONFUSED with facts...you're like a religious zealot who's incapable of actually assimilating facts and changing his mind. I get it, I've seen it in the Jehovah's witnesses that some to my door.

And leaving ALL of that aside the radiation levels (regardless of the Bq) shows the sieverts/h which INCLUDES all the decays per second and THOSE are safe. There now you've been educated.

They are trying to assume it is all okay, when they can still get deadly doses if they stand in the wrong place.

You can do this in a reactor that HASN'T blown up. Those areas are miniscule, and alpha particles can be shielded by CENTIMETERS of air...or a piece of paper...

http://en.wikiped...Toxicity

MM, you are the Jehovah's Witness, falling for silly stuff told to you by those with axes to grind, . . BIG MONEY axes. Go behind the altar and see what they really do.

I'm not the one throwing around extraordinary claims without a SHRED of evidence to back them up. I do things like...oh give actual SOURCES to actual FACTS which actually support my claims, as opposed to you who gives sources which back your opponents claims...

Did you look at the safety record of nuclear vs. other power?
Did you look at the radiation levels around Fukushima?
Did you look at the new nuclear technology coming online?

Safety? Are you kidding? We have hundreds of square miles of land uninhabitable near Prypiat.

In Prypiat the levels are VERY safe, at 1 micro-sievert/hour....multiplying out to 8.7 mSv/a, which is FAR lower than what is considered safe.

http://en.wikiped...t#Safety

Do you really think you can survive living in Fukushima?

Absolutely. Those levels are all consistently below what's considered necessary for even a SLIGHT increased cancer risk.

How many cancers will be started this year by wind turbines?

http://www.dailym...ale.html

http://www.pbs.or...a_12-14/

http://www.dailym...tes.html

"Science" in the Daily Mail, . . a political rag?

Here's another then ...

http://www.thegua...ollution

Is PBS a political rag? :)

Go look into gold mining and extraction. Then, look into resource substitution, and pollution controls. Large generators do not use rare earths for magnets, they use exciters. Look up how it works.

You are taking shots in a field you do not understand.

I'm giving facts. You give none and appeal to emotion and an (apparently) non-existent experience in "the field"...as if being at a nuclear plant gives you some kind of knowledge by osmosis....maybe it's the secret radiation GE isn't telling you about that made you paranoid??

If it is all so simple, why do we still have three to five million gallons of the deadliest material on Earth eating its way through the newest set of tanks at Hanford?

They had Botulinum toxin at Hanford?

http://en.wikiped...um_toxin

Hanford babies.

No, you said they had, and I quote..."the deadliest material on Earth" at Hanford. Well the deadliest material on Earth is Botulinum toxin. I'm just taking you at your word...unless of course you were being histrionic again...

Also it is well to note that, if they were keeping actinides there, they could be burned up by molten salt reactors as opposed to stored in Hanford. It's impossible to say though, because you're so emotional about the topic and tend to exaggerate everything like a teenage school girl....

Also the tritium leaking at Hanford is about 1/5th the level the WHO deems safe...

http://en.wikiped...concerns

then look here...

http://www.who.in...and2.pdf

Page 7 Under H3.

Can you really show me one successful storage site? I want to see the technology.

The spent fuel pools are "fairly" effective...until a bureaucrat gives the order to quench an already partially molten core with sea water and blows the building up....

HOWEVER, if ignorant people like you would simply get out of the way we could burn 99%...let me say that again....99% of the current "waste" we're storing...

" . . . and the Fairies will carry away the rest!"

MM, I want your references to the background radiation levels, please.

I already gave them....I won't do it again so ACTUALLY look at them this time.

Fukushima and all of Japan...

http://jciv.iidj.net/map/

Pripyat

http://en.wikiped...t#Safety

Explanation of sieverts

http://en.wikiped.../Sievert

Background radiation

http://en.wikiped...adiation

You have all the opportunity to relieve yourself of your ignorance with the above links...kindly DO it this time...

More than 1500 people died during or as a direct result of the evacuation at Fukushima according to the NEI. Nuclear apologists always claim that had nothing to do with Nuclear energy, that its the bureacracy that really killed them for having to have an evacuation plan in the first place. The brainwashing is complete. Or they work for the nuclear industry in some capacity..

More than 1500 people died during or as a direct result of the evacuation at Fukushima according to the NEI. Nuclear apologists always claim that had nothing to do with Nuclear energy, that its the bureacracy [sic] that really killed them for having to have an evacuation plan in the first place. The brainwashing is complete. Or they work for the nuclear industry in some capacity..

Interesting that you ASSERT brainwashing without any supporting FACTS that anything at Fukushima is dangerous, and in fact the evacuation killed more people than any contamination will according to the W.H.O.

I don't work for the nuclear industry. I have a brain, can read, and do arithmetic...what's your excuse?

MM, are you otto in disguise? You are sounding like him.

Not even close, but you deserve what you get from him....every bit of it.

Meanwhile, why did they evacuate the area, and why can't they come back? Why is everyone wearing complete body suits and respirators?

They could come back, more bureaucratic BS...

And why are we using this dangerous technology?

Because it isn't dangerous...just to small minded hysterics...

Tell you what, clean up Fukushima so we cannot tell what happened, tell us what you did with the intensely-radioactive waste, and we may let you build another one.

You can't tell what happened there without a Geiger counter...you'd never know or never be any more unhealthy.

So when do we "get" to build another one. After all you hysterics are gone?

The background radiation at my house is just under 0.1 microSievert/hr. The readings at Fuku are over 14.5 microSieverts/hr. At 14.0 that gives you 122,640 microSieierts/year.

Which is 122 mSv/a, which is slightly above the minimum dose per year at which you can possibly detect a noticeable increase in cancer. Those are the HIGHEST readings, yes, and that puts them below beaches in Brazil and villages in Iran where there have been no increased incidence of cancer.

The rule is for every full sievert (which is a thousand times what you're talking about) there is a 5% increased incidence of cancer. So, based on that we know that anyone who gets an annual dosage of 120 mSv/a has a .1% chance of getting cancer due to the extra background radiation.

Show me one worker at Fukushima who is not in full protective dress, including respirator.

Indeed, fear is a powerful emotion. Especially when reinforced by the government and mass media. How many people actually got Ebola? How much FEAR was caused by the news cycle and the government agencies needing justification surrounding that whole bunch of idiocy?

However, the levels AT the reactor building are ten times what you're reporting. Which means someone unprotected there...who worked there a full year would have a 1% extra chance per year of getting cancer. Probably worth wearing a suit at the reactor site...

The 1500+ deaths directly attributed to the evacuation are from NEI, the Nuclear Energy Institute, as clearly stated. You might be able to read but you have little understanding of facts. Nearly 1/5th of a million people had to be evacuated and 80,000 are still homeless. This means nothing to an apologist. And of course, radiation deaths show up years later, so you are being disingenuous to say the least. But you know that.

you outsiders are so convinced about the safety of nuclear technology, never having worked with it, or even seen one up close

The osmosis argument again. Most people who drive cars dont have the slightest idea how they work. And you have no idea what youre talking about.

Go look up the design of the system, go to the videos of the system and see for yourself. You do not even understand the design of the system

Provide links to back up your empty innuendo.

You notice that the as-good-as-an-engineer-no-no-better gkam hasnt figured out how to use the quote button yet?

Show me one worker at Fukushima who is not in full protective dress, including respirator

Well thats easy.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1253036/thumbs/o-FUKUSHIMA-RADIATION-facebook.jpg

-Google 'fukushima worker - images' and youll see dozens. Why do you ask such idiot questions? You really dont think anyone would check?

122,640 microSieierts equals 122.6 milliSieverts, which is 1.22%. How many folk in the Northern Hemisphere? Run the numbers, Toots.

Nope, up to 100 mSv/a is not cancer causing. We know this EMPIRICALLY...look it up.

The extra 22.6 mSv is where you calculate from

The 1500+ deaths directly attributed to the evacuation are from NEI, the Nuclear Energy Institute, as clearly stated. You might be able to read but you have little understanding of facts. Nearly 1/5th of a million people had to be evacuated and 80,000 are still homeless. This means nothing to an apologist. And of course, radiation deaths show up years later, so you are being disingenuous to say the least. But you know that.

They are homeless because of hysterics like YOU. The area is as 8 times safer than beaches in Brazil and about as safe as a town in Iran which has been occupied for a long time. It's you who's being "disingenuous"...or willfully ignorant one of the two.

The issue of the radioactive water, 400 more tons each day, has been answered by a TEPCO bureaucrat, who will just dump it into the ocean.

And yet we know empirically that the radiation just off the shore is virtually undetectable and FAR below what is considered dangerous. I provided that source up-thread, so all anyone who wants to know the truth has to do is look it up...

:)

Actually what I said in response to KampahsArt is incorrect. The VAST MAJORITY of the area is far safer than either of those two areas. There are a few places where one can measure radiation as "high" as 125 mSv/a...most of the surrounding area is far lower.

Show me one worker at Fukushima who is not in full protective dress, including respirator.

Show me one bullshit pronouncement by the phoney expert engineer gkam that can't be discredited in a few minutes. You harm your cause by attempting to argue it in public.

I also must continually apologize for my hostile attitude on this subject. Usually I like to keep that in check, but I will admit on THIS issue it's easy for me to get "hooked". This issue is of such importance to the future of the planet (AGW), and the overall prosperity of the human race (just look at how energy availability and standard of living correlate) that I find it difficult to divest myself from the implications if we don't start using a viable energy source in the VERY near future.

Don't think for one second I don't think there AREN'T risks....they've just been shown to be so miniscule compared to the payoffs (especially now that we have the "waste" issue under control) it's simple politics and emotionalism that stand in the way. It's DIFFICULT to argue with fear, it's much easier to discuss using reason. I encourage my "opponents" to endeavor to do the same...as I will continue to do my best (scant as that can be at times).

At first, they lied about the meltdowns at TMI, not admitting it for YEARS, when we knew within hours. But you folk just continue to trust them like you did with "WMD!".

Why bring up WMD...seriously. You have no idea what my position is on that, and even IF it was what you think it is it would have no relation to the facts of the subject. THIS is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post. Recall Dragnet..."Just the facts Ma'am".

Now, as to the FACTS of TMI, yes it did melt down, and yes it was perfectly safe. Approx. 2 million people got the equivalent dose of 1/5th of a chest x-ray. THAT'S what happens when you let the safety features built into the plant actually function, as opposed to blowing up the building with hydrogen trying to mollify the hysterical public....

The design is unsafe, . . . . and you can just wait for Indian Point to happen

They are extremely safe, as the record shows. Gen 4s are even more safe.

Now I WILL say that this design...

http://en.wikiped...iki/RBMK

IS unsafe, and basically built to meltdown...

Does that record include Fukushima?

Of course, no one died as a result of radiation as has been firmly established...DESPITE the mishandling of the situation. It's also been demonstrated that the radiation levels are quite safe in the area with few exceptions. That would be an unqualified yes when compared to the millions coal kills per year.

What will you do with the intensely-radioactive waste? No pies in the sky, you had over 50 years to find a way, and cannot do it.

We've found a way to do it. You just refuse to let facts confuse you.

Hanford, as I've shown, is within safe levels according to the WHO.

Thanks for bringing that up. Then, what is the reason for the cemeteries of babies over the decades? Why are babies being born now with partial brains?

Whatever the reason, it's not radiation...

Show me your peer reviewed epidemiological studies that link these defects to safe levels of radiation and I'll change my mind.

"We've found a way to do it. You just refuse to let facts confuse you."
----------------------------------------

Show me. No pie in the sky, I want to see the working facility and the technology. This concerns the industry which promised us "Too cheap to meter" and "Meltdowns are impossible".

Right now, you folk cannot even STORE it safely, it seems.

I've already done it. Not going to do it again. Everyone here has seen the links and knows it. If you really want to see it look in the thread.

If you actually WANT to learn look up IFR, and LFTR and molten salt reactors and it's all there. They've all been demonstrated except for a LFTR, but the principles it's built on HAVE been demonstrated in other reactors.

All you folk hiding away from Fukushima can come back now!

Attention: Displaced People! It is all safe now, according to MM, so all those workers can take off their respirators and suits!

Buy cheap land in a lovely forest. This land, just outside of Pripyat, is ideal for a new family. Lots of Nature, and few people!

Gonna have some bargains out there, . . .

Histrionics, emotionalism, and sensationalism...that's all anyone opposing nuclear power has at this point....well that and Jane Fonda...

You forgot the sky fairies and the bridge trolls. They all exist together in Fantasyland.

Nope :)

The IFR was a functioning reactor and oak ridge demonstrated the feasibility of MSRs. So YOUR definition of fantasyland might be a fully functioning reactor, but to every other reasonable human being it's not ;)

What really gets you is the fact she was right about the war and about nuclear power.

She was right about the war, and utterly traitorous in how she went about protesting it. She gave notes passed to her from navy pilots to their NVA captors....let that sink in...

I'd have her in prison still. She was dead wrong about nuclear power, and still is.

She was right about the war, and utterly traitorous in how she went about protesting it. She gave notes passed to her from navy pilots to their NVA captors....let that sink in...

I'd have her in prison still.

ok, i gotta weigh in on this one
yall can continue arguing, i don't care... but jane fonda is a traitor and a piece of scum not worth the time it would take to urinate a fire into control if it was on her face

I totally agree with MM on the jane fonda bit (in jail or worse)

especially with regard to her inhuman treatment of captive US soldiers, regardless of her personal beliefs

Hey, otto, I was Senior Engineer of what was then the largest non-governmental power company on earth

No you werent. You were a job shopper with an inflated title.

Show me I wasn't

Youre not an engineer by your own admission and you do not have the right to use inflated titles in order to claim to be one.

Show me I wasn't a communications tech at the Air Force Flight Test Center, and AFFTC Airman of the Month for October, 1966.

Show me what being a technician has to do with anything in this thread? Or any thread youve participated in?

Why don't you ask about specifics, things you can check

I DID. Why would any engineer mistake dust for reactor parts? Why would any engineer think that an H2 explosion could hurl reactor parts 120km?

They wouldnt. Youre nothing but hot air.

Gentlemen

jane fonda is a traitor and a piece of scum

The way to end a conflict is to annihilate the enemy. In order to annihilate the enemy you have to convince them to come out of the shadows and fight. In order to do this you have to give them the idea that they can win.

Jane fonda was enlisted to go over to vietnam and do exactly this. She gave the viet cong the idea that they could actually win the war. So during tet they obediently threw themselves on the wire and were killed in great piles.

And after tet they were no longer a viable fighting force. They could present no opposition to north vietnamese forces who were intended to take over the country after we left, and finish the cultural destruction that had been begun by the french.

Today, vietnam is a peaceful, stable and productive member of the world community with a growth rate in keeping with their ability to support themselves. This is victory by any measure.

We won that war with the help of jane fonda.

We won that war with the help of jane fonda.

@Ghost
sorry, you and i will likely never agree on this particular issue

i saw things very differently
and living overseas during the height of the stupidity made for a different outlook altogether

Give it some time. Try it on for size. Drive it around the block. Consider the alternatives. Where were all those cong coming from? Where are all the jihadis coming from? You cant just kill the combatants and leave the culture intact. The culture will continue producing a never-ending supply.

The series of wars and revolutions and the communist martial law over many generations was what was required to end the cycle of religion-created overpopulation and endemic violence.

It worked. We did our part. You should be happy to have an explanation which gives meaning to all the effort expended. You should see in it hope that troubles in the middle east will be resolved in the same way - by the gradual destruction of the medieval cultures which cause them.

You should be happy to have an explanation which gives meaning to all the effort expended.

@Ghost
ok, some of that made sense in a way, but the whole thing about betraying the US captives... that still rankles me

You should see in it hope that troubles in the middle east will be resolved in the same way - by the gradual destruction of the medieval cultures which cause them.

we may see eye to eye a little on the eventual outcome and the future of the middle east ...
but i still don't see her actually helping the Nam outcome
i don't see any positive in her visit, betrayal of captives...etc

i DO understand what you mean about

you have to convince them to come out of the shadows and fight. In order to do this you have to give them the idea that they can win.... So during tet they obediently threw themselves on the wire and were killed in great piles

but they had been building up for the Tet for a while

not sure her visit helped in that regard

So during tet they obediently threw themselves on the wire and were killed in great piles

@Ghost
and i can see where your whole explanation makes sense, but i just don't see how her visit was any kind of monumental motivational catalyst

There were quite a few other visits around the same time period you could attribute the buildup of Tet to, and there were visits (secret and public) that you could also attribute to the success of the overall campaign (as viewed above)
but her visit would be a small cog in that machinery taking that perspective, not major

if this is what you are saying, then i can actually see your point (but again, given her specific actions as a person re: betrayal, i still dislike the person)

EDIT: i would prefer to have some evidence that would help explain her trip with regard to

Jane fonda was enlisted to go over to vietnam and do exactly this

i would prefer to have some evidence

Well there wouldn't be any evidence whatsoever for that sort of thing would there? We have to rely on inference. Forensics. We have a better perspective now on the war than we did when we formed our opinions back in the 70s. Back then we didn't anticipate the outcome that we see now. We can look at the outcome and wonder if the war hadn't been fought to produce it, and that there was no other way to produce it, than by fighting that war in exactly the way it was fought.

"Fonda had been at the peak of her fame when she visited Vietnam in 1972: every schoolboy's dream in Barbarella, Academy award-nominated for They Shoot Horses, Don't They? and an Oscar winner for Klute. Jastrow, a seven-times Emmy award winner, said: "She had never been an activist about anything – she hadn't even followed the war."

-The publicity she generated was major indeed, especially among the vietnamese. Fonda also married ted turner, an obvious Insider.

The most revealing evidence is the 28 MILLION ABORTIONS which have occurred in Vietnam since the end of the war.
http://www.johnst...313.html

-The religionist cultures which would have prevented this had been destroyed by the concerted efforts of western occupiers and communist martial law over many generations. We see this Process at work throughout the world.

Evidence suggests that the motivations of the Taliban, al qaida, and various jihadi groups were constructed to skim the most contentious, hapless young men and send them into coalition gunsights.

Pakistan has so far escaped revolution because this demographic subgroup has been convinced to head westward to kill Americans.

Toward the end of the Korean war US soldiers found themselves having to massacre hundreds of the enemy who were forced to march in formation parallel to their positions. A soldier in Vietnam recounted that his last 100 or so missions had been ambushes. Slaughter.

I do not trust nuclear technologies and their supporters because I know better - from experience.

What experience? Their amazing safety track record? I'm still waiting for you to give a comparative chart of the safety of various forms of power. The reason you haven't is that all credible ones show nuclear as EXTREMELY safe in comparison.

You realize, of course, that your political OPINION doesn't actually trump facts....

Also ANYONE who thinks that Saddam DIDN'T have WMD should ask these people about it...

http://en.wikiped...l_attack

It was NEVER a question of IF he had them...only when he got rid of them...

Okay, how many died because of Chernobyl? How many are killed each year by operating wind turbines? Photovoltaic operation?

It's your assertion they aren't safe. Provide your source. I've provided mine in spades. Quit bleating like a sheep and pony up.

How many died at Chernobyl?

How many were killed by SL-1? If it is so safe, why did they have to bury parts of the bodies from SL-1 as High-level waste?

Where are you going to put the intensely-radioactive waste? No pie-in-the-sky promises, I want to see the technology at work. No more lies and promises.

Still waiting for proof, data, and sources instead of hysterical questions yelled into the virtual night....

In short, I'm not swayed by innuendo, emotionalism, and especially histrionic hand waving....most reasonable people aren't.

I've shown you ten times what we could do with the high level waste with the functioning reactors developed at oak ridge. Those are REAL, as opposed to your fictional world-view based on NOTHING but your fear.

"It's your assertion they aren't safe. Provide your source. I've provided mine in spades. Quit bleating like a sheep and pony up."
------------------------------------------------------

http://ecowatch.c...kushima/

Your only credible source there (the guardian) is split on its conclusions...

I am not going to change your mind, MM. That's fine.

We will see which technology bedevils us the most, . . won't we?

You could easily change my mind if you had the data...but you don't...

No, MM, any data I provide will just send you to some nuclear industry site for rebuttal.

You mean the study that gave the same numbers yours did? It wasn't a rebuttal of your numbers, it was your numbers in comparison to other forms of energy. You'd know that if you knew how to read and understand a paper.

I guess I'll keep believing the official and credible sources and you can believe people who don't bathe for months and eat granola bars when they aren't playing out their fears on the internet to gullible people like you...

I think I am the only one here with any kind of experience with the technology, as sketchy as it is. All you "know" is what they tell you. Get fooled before? Recently?

All you know is the same (unless you've been there and done some first hand testing), and what they're telling us both is that the levels are safe...

Sorry to get personal, . . got carried away.

We will see, . . . . about nuclear technologies, which need police states to guard.

NP, I tend to get there too at times on this topic.

I wish we COULD see about nuclear technologies, and we will...but it will be in China not here. They're already building MSRs and I believe even a LFTR...they have plans to burn up all the "spent fuel" they're currently storing....of course they're going to continue to use reactors for their weapons program too.

Yes, and what else did they tell you? That meltdowns were impossible?

Nope.

Radiation does NOT go away.

I suggest you look at the fuel cycles. It DOES go "away" in the form of thermal radiation which is then converted to electricity by various means. The spent fuel we currently house as "waste" has 99% of the energy still in it. If you understand that 1% of that energy "went away" in the form of electricity in a LWR, then it's not so difficult to understand how most of the rest will "go away" when put into a reactor that can take advantage of the neutrons....it's just that simple.

No. Look up the waste from the process. All these folk are doing is taking the remaining fuel out of the waste, not converting it to safe materials. They are creating more actinides to bedevil Mankind essentially forever, in Human terms.

The actinides poison the reactions, making it impossible to use all the active fuel, so it is "reprocessed" to get the remaining fissile stuff, so they can create MORE actinide waste.

So, you didn't look at the fuel cycles...

Your loss, it's simply knowledge.

Show me the place in the fuel cycle where the radiation goes away.

It's not about "goes away", it's about actinides left after the cycle.....which BTW are NONE....

Then, where does it go?

It is not "used up" as you seem to actually believe!

Where does oil go gkam....

http://en.wikiped...el_cycle

But stop the ridiculous and outright silly held to account nonsense.

Absolutely not...you WILL be held to account, I'm done with you and your ilk. if our government deems you insignificant so be it. If not, be prepared for your positions publicly displayed for prosecution. I'm done with the likes of you on a civil level....

But stop the ridiculous and outright silly held to account nonsense.

Absolutely not...you WILL be held to account, I'm done with you and your ilk. if our government deems you insignificant so be it. If not, be prepared for your positions publicly displayed for prosecution. I'm done with the likes of you on a civil level....

I'm sure many criminals have said the same until the knock at the door...

Whatever else happens rest assured the NRC has been contacted about YOU......

Well there wouldn't be any evidence whatsoever for that sort of thing would there? We have to rely on inference. Forensics.

@Ghost
yes, there would be

i have worked in and with and around the gov't all of my life, and i've worked in and with highly classified stuff as well, and i know that the gov't doesn't fart without there being a rule, paper or some red tape documenting it somewhere

even the stuff going on at Area 51 has paperwork

if the gov't is involved, then there is most likely some paper trail somewhere

it may not be declassified yet, or it may simply be lost... i don't know,
but the gov't lives on paperwork... even our "undocumented" classified operations had paperwork logging our movements, so....

until i see actual evidence, i will remain skeptical, especially with regard, specifically, to jane fonda

Stumpy, "Area 51", or Groom Lake as it is really known

@Gkam

i've been there a time or two in my job as a paramedic firefighter for the USAF

there is more classified stuff/scary sh*t at a couple other of my assignments than there

Wow, Stumpy, our firefighters and medics were busy at Eddie's. Glad I did not have that job. I saw enough as it was, no need for close-up stuff.

@Gkam
and i was also part of the biggest, busiest FD in all the US armed forces
logged more than 25,000 emergency calls

sometimes downright f*cking horrific

i still have nightmares about some of it
I would say PM me for details but in all honesty, i don't like to talk about the specifics. i won't talk about it... it is one of the reasons i sit up nights and take classes on-line

love the SR-71, too, except it leaks too much on the ground
I always wanted to fly one, myself
My two favorite A/C in the military OR anywhere else was the Blackbird and the C-130 Hurc's

I am one of the FEW people who would join the USAF to fly a C-130 Hercules LOL
except that i preferred being a FF
I've gotten the opportunity to actually fly one (with pilot sitting there too - no landing/takeoff, just fly)
AWESOME aircraft!
LOVE IT

Stumpy, you would have loved the XB-70. Almost as fast as the Blackbird, but no leaks, and it was pure white, . . and big. I'll email you some stuff about it

Why would he want info from a comtech when he could get real info, written by real experts, on the web?

experience

Gkam thinks that experience is taking a dump in a restroom at a nuke plant, or losing a job every 6 mos and then imagining all the wonderful things he did.

Evidence

Stumpy says that 1) he worked for the govt and 2) he's seen lots of evidence, and so he feels qualified to assert that there must be evidence for everything. You're starting to sound like gkam.

Most of the evidence for MKultra was destroyed by the outgoing CIA director. Criminals destroy evidence. But we can examine the most significant results of wars and revolutions forensically and begin to infer intent.

Stumpy says that 1) he worked for the govt and 2) he's seen lots of evidence, and so he feels qualified to assert that there must be evidence for everything. You're starting to sound like gkam.

Most of the evidence for MKultra was destroyed by the outgoing CIA director. Criminals destroy evidence. But we can examine the most significant results of wars and revolutions forensically and begin to infer intent.

@Ghost
1- you've seen some of my quals
2- still stands... the gov't runs on red tape, even for the classified crap
there is never just 1 set of anything in the military OR the gov't, and the stuff that is tightly controlled/low # of copies like "eyes only" doc's may well be destroyed BUT
there will always be a Snowden too

plus
there is nothing THAT sensitive or overwhelmingly secret about employing celebrities to distraction so it would NOT be all that heavily classified, regardless of the war or the sensitivity of the mission

destroyed by the outgoing CIA director.

@Ghost
and yeah, maybe we can prove that a lot of prior stuff was destroyed and we can't get that back... and maybe you have a point about forensic investigation of wars, etc... but you make the above sound like some grand conspiracy to hide the truth

Where do you draw the line when accepting the evidence?

I only mentioned my experience because:
1- you are personally aware of some of it
2- it was relevant and almost every single person in the same position or the same background would tell you the exact same thing

Look at the situation logically
jfonda was an actress
she went overseas
now, considering this was a highly classified (at the time) military mission for more than just the distraction... there would STILL be copious amounts of other evidence
narrowing it down to the distraction means there is really NO reason NOT to declassify the info

so why is it not available when so much classified stuff is?

Hollywood was established to exploit the immense potential of film as a shaper of human behavior. It is our primary source of propaganda. In only a few gens it has brought population growth in the western world to near zero, by vilifying traditional lifestyles and promoting new ones.

Have you ever wondered why actors and musicians are knighted? McCartney the stoner and Elton John the homosexual receive the highest honors while in previous gens druggies received life sentences and Oscar Wilde was jailed and ostracized until it killed him.

This unparalleled source of power was created to change the world. It's Purpose was not to make money but to preserve the Authority which gives money legitimacy. Where did you get your ideas about nam? All wars look the same while you're standing in the middle of them.

Henry Fonda taught you that ww2 was the good war. Peter Fonda and Tom Hayden explained to you why the indochina war was wrong. Jane Fonda helped to end it Properly.

And Ted Turner made sure you got to see the proper reruns at the proper Time.

And you think H2 explosions can throw reactor parts 130km. You also think you're an engineer. Etc. And you think no one will see through this bullshit.

No, otto, I think a prompt moderated criticality can cast fuel rod residue of the reactor over 130 km. How about you?

But above gkam said this:

How did Plutonium get 130 km away from Fukushima? It included parts of reactor vessel and the fuel components

-Sadly, others have noted that he is a pathological liar as well.

"-Sadly, others have noted that he is a pathological liar as well."
-------------------------------------------

You dream of me, don't you otto?

Admit it. You are fixated on my experiences because you have none. Why else avoid the topic and demonstrate your character?

I have the sort of character which cannot tolerate lies and pretense. Your experience is as a low level tech, form filler-outer, powerpoint jockey, and chronic unemployed. I suppose you imagine these are something to dream about?

You lie about what you post in the same thread you post it in. You said vessel parts were blown 120km away from the explosion, not realizing how asinine this was. Would I dream of being that ignorant?

Your 'experience' is most likely lies as well. Would I dream of having to make up lies about my past in order to feel better about myself?

Where did you get your ideas about nam? All wars look the same while you're standing in the middle of them.

@Ghost
most of my history about Nam was given to me by those who lived through it or from the books i read

I don't watch much tv
don't even get TV where i live... signals don't reach us and i am not paying for sattelite when i would only tune in to watch NCIS once a week...
i simply wait and get the whole season every year after it has come out, or i watch it on the internet

i read a lot

So turner et al didn't have the same effect on me that they did others
I was raised overseas anyway, so that is moot with regard to me
when we DID get tv, it was usually BBC
more often than not we just didn't get TV or had AFRTS propaganda which we rarely ever watched

and i never thought about the knighting
i figured it had to do with popularity
(its a Brit thing anyway, not us)

Henry Fonda taught you that ww2 was the good war.

@Otto
We learned things a bit different
remember, i didn't grow up in the US like you did
I grew up either in Japan or in the various European countries

War was something we saw or learned about from veterans
Just like terrorism
We lived through it daily

I will say that TV is a powerful tool

you can learn a lot about the people of an area/nation by watching their TV and especially by watching their commercials

In fact, I think i still like commercials better than TV
my kids record them for me so i can enjoy them... it is very telling
you should really watch them sometime
you would be surprised how much information about a people, an area and a culture they give out

I am so sorry they did not find that V-8 engine block you assumed they would find when I said reactor "part". You depend on semantics because you do not understand the technology

Im so sorry you thought you had to post rubbish and then you had to lie about posting it, because you're not man enough to admit you made a mistake. But I would expect this from someone who has to lie about his qualifications.

Otto, I had the guts to put myself out there and you are still hiding, but sniping those you cannot equal in a fair discussion. Now, let's hear you tell us where the Corium is and its condition.

No, you lacked the guts to post without making up a false personal history to impress people.

People here know that their past is irrelevant to the facts they post. Only insecure people like yourself don't seem to understand this.

turner didn't have an effect on me

Youre missing the point - the media gives us our opinions. You only read the books which got published.

No, otto, what I said was true. You just assume I have your character. Maybe we will have to wait until you find out others may be better than you, or have more experience in matters.

Or maybe you already know and it is the reason for your attitude. At any rate, let's keep to the topic

The topic is not you or all the imaginary wonderful things youve done.

If you do not believe my experience, too bad. You should use it to learn, instead of ego-bumping.

I believe when you say you have no training, no degree, and no licence as an engineer. I believe that despite this you cant help but pretend to be one in order to impress people and boost your stunted ego.

My attitude stems from the nonsense you post about plutonium raining down on idaho, h2 explosions hurling reactor parts 120km, thorium reactor tech being abandoned, etcetcetc, and your general ignorance of the relative safety of nuclear tech.

And of course from your lies about your experience and qualifications.

Youre missing the point - the media gives us our opinions. You only read the books which got published.

@Otto
i will concede that the media has the ability to formulate opinions to the weak minded or those unable to research
and media generate/instigate perceptions about a situation

& that now that they are owned by a small number of people, they are a lot more likely to follow an agenda (as in the anti-gun agenda seen at most media outlets)

but i disagree that they are the sole or even primary opinion maker

IMHO - If they were, we would already be disarmed and the public would be happy about it
we would all be like the spineless morons posting that anti-second amendment BS...

and given that even you tear those people up with fact after fact proving them wrong and showing how banning guns will simply make them targets for criminals...
i will have to say that your anti-stupid/pro-2nd amendment arguments support my assertions with regard to the media

The topic here is Fukushima, not guns or anything else. Let's do the guns thing in another forum.

@gkam
i am not talking about guns
this is a conversation with regard to media generating opinion between Otto and i

it is cogent to a on-going conversations between he and i

it in no way addresses the actual issue of guns in the US, only the media attention and the fact that the media has yet to win out over the pro-2nd amendment with regard to public opinion

you will have to scroll through all the conversation above to comprehend how it applies to the topic

Argument goes to intent as well as the power of the media, which is relevant to the topic
thanks

Counsel of Foreign Relations controls media in USA, Captain

Didn't mean to interrupt your conversations, I just thought if we got into that, this thread would never end.

I'd like to have that discussion, but elsewhere, when it is time.

Uh who gives a shit what you want?

Counsel of Foreign Relations controls media in USA, Captain

@kochevnik
Where is your supporting evidence for this?

Didn't mean to interrupt your conversations, I just thought if we got into that, this thread would never end.

I'd like to have that discussion, but elsewhere, when it is time.

@gkam
give it time
it'll happen again

@kochevnik

Counsel of Foreign Relations controls media in USA, Captain

Actually they don't but Putin controls psyops war against his own people.

http://www.politi...52SvF98E