there is no materialistic way to create a code and its decoding counterpart. There just is none.
Whoa!!!!
The level of complexity within the cell has just gone up ANOTHER step.
Here the language is immensely informative: Codes, Hidden Codes, Decyphering of a code, translation, synonymous codes. I can go on and on. Clearly these codes and decoding are not somethings that can happen by chance since there is no materialistic way to create a code and its decoding counterpart. There just is none.
The only way codes and their decoding measures can arise is through intelligence. They are completely independent of the materialistic implementation. AND THEY ARE ABSTRACT.
Variations in codon efficiency are subject to selection just like any other trait, and thus are likely to have some effect.
you have now failed to indicate how selection for mutating codons that convey antibiotic resistance occurs... it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about ... For contrast see: http://dx.doi.org...i0.17338
Rather than critiquing others, why don't YOU rebut kevinrtrs in 1000 characters?
But that doesn't mean that nutrient-and-pheromone driven epigenetic changes are the ONLY thing involved in natural selection.
You continue to fail to indicate how selection for mutating codons that convey antibiotic resistance occurs...
Bacteria with mutated codons that convey antibiotic resistance (typically through faster pumping out of the antibiotic) survive better when exposed to antibiotics, and are thus 'selected' by the antibiotic to pass on their genes.
If someone explains to him how mutations cause adaptive evolution, I'll be happy to explain why they can't.
His papers are just as convoluted and meaningless as his posts here.
If your hypothesis had any ground to stand on, you'd be trying to convince people in academia rather than spouting it over and over on some random science website, JVK.
Speaking of which, creationists shouldn't comment on science. It is hilarious, and it makes deconverts from religion, see Dawkins's Convert's Corner.
Which is why I've never heard your model mentioned and why *I've been taught* the mutation selection model throughout my years of schooling, right?
Mutations "theory" is nothing more than an idiot's view of the basic principles of biology.
...that led to adaptive evolution of the 5-6 million switches in the human genome...
Neither of you have a clue as to how ignorant you actually are, do you? What was the last review article you read that described how random mutations caused anything that was adaptive? Is there a model for that?
Neither of you have a clue as to how ignorant you actually are, do you? What was the last review article you read that described how random mutations caused anything that was adaptive? Is there a model for that?
Ignoring the links I posted on the first page, huh?
Ignoring the links I posted on the first page, huh?
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/30/11228.full
Just four idiots regurgitating what they were taught, then?
Did you look up "de novo" gene expression?
Secondly, we found rearrangements within the central tandem repeat domain of the coding region that yield a more hydrophobic Flo11p variant. Together, these mutations result in dramatic increase in cell surface hydrophobicity, which in turn confers these yeasts the ability to float by surface tension
How do organisms select for mutations that are somehow adaptive at the molecular level. Is there a model for that?
You continue with the ridiculous claim that mutations cause something adaptive, and there has never been any scientific evidence for mutation-driven selection/speciation.
Secondly, we found rearrangements within the central tandem repeat domain of the coding region that yield a more hydrophobic Flo11p variant. Together, these mutations result in dramatic increase in cell surface hydrophobicity, which in turn confers these yeasts the ability to float by surface tension
Part of being a good scientist is humility and the ability to explain yourself properly. All you ever do is repeat the same thing and swat away anything that seems to contradict you without actually explaining what's wrong with it.
I'm not denying the involvement of epigenetics and nutrient/pheromone post-transcriptional modification. I'm just wondering how you can throw these results out without a reasonable explanation.
You continue with the ridiculous claim that mutations cause something adaptive, and there has never been any scientific evidence for mutation-driven selection/speciation.
Ignoring what I posted. Imagine that.Secondly, we found rearrangements within the central tandem repeat domain of the coding region that yield a more hydrophobic Flo11p variant. Together, these mutations result in dramatic increase in cell surface hydrophobicity, which in turn confers these yeasts the ability to float by surface tension
@JVK - by the way, calling people "idiots" doesn't count as answering.
Are you saying the mutations caused the floating yeast to adaptively evolve and become humans? If not, what does the floating have to do with anything in the context of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution? I wouldn't ignore anything if you clarify what you think about cause and effect. You're simply tossing up more nonsense.
Mutations don't _cause_ adaptive evolution. Environmental pressures resulting in selection do. If a strain of yeast doesn't get as much oxygen as another, obviously it's not going to grow as well.
I'm not denying the involvement of epigenetics and nutrient/pheromone post-transcriptional modification. I'm just wondering how you can throw these results out without a reasonable explanation.
I can throw out results that appear to attest to mutations as the cause of adaptive evolution because no evidence suggests that is possible.
Did you seriously just ask "what is the contribution of oxygen to survival"?
You just went full retard.
So you admit that you throw out any results that disagree with you...
- if you are an expert in the field you will know of literally thousands of papers supporting mutations as part of evolution that you must be throwing out!
@barakn - trolls must be answered or their willful ignorance will be spread throughout the land. While one cannot eliminate such trolls, one can deal with those that cross one's path.
@JVK I hope someone will tell us HOW mutations are involved in anything adaptive in the context of ecological, social, neurogenic, and socio-cognitive niche construction that is required and controlled by sensory input.By finding a local minimum in conflict state space. Much as steel grows stronger via stimulated annealing. This works on computer models, so questioning it's efficacy is only the purview of CRANKS and religionist nutters
I asked what causes the existing variety of genes in extant species IN YOUR MODEL.
And you have YET AGAIN failed to answer where the variety of genes comes from IN YOUR MODEL.
Indications are that people believe selection is for mutations.
I happen to agree on the importance of RNA - I've been saying for decades RNA interaction networks control the cell, and the DNA-centric paradigm is like looking at the disk drive of a computer and ignoring the CPU.
------------------
Now where does the variety of genes comes from in YOUR MODEL?
Chromatin remodeling, as I learned it, is a method of transcription level modification- histone packing, supercoiling, etc. to induce or repress transcription.
How is that relevant to the actual base sequence of the gene?
By finding a local minimum in conflict state space. Much as steel grows stronger via stimulated annealing. This works on computer models...
Here we have an example of sunlight-induced mutations...
Here we have an example of sunlight-induced mutations that cause malignant melanoma, and the mutations are relevant to the cause of other cancers. How are the mutations selected for, or otherwise involved in adaptive evolution?
Does this nine year old research paper support your work?
While helpful mutations are rare, they are selected FOR.
For example, lactase persistence has been traced to mutations that have been selected FOR in societies where milk is consumed.
So once again, where does the variety of the genes themselves come from in your theory?
My name is Andrew Jones. I'm a senior at Carthage College studying biology...
I know about epigenetics... I just picked through your paper with a fine tooth comb. There was nothing that said the phenotypic effects of mutations can't result in natural selection through improved nutrient access, which the Fidalgo paper demonstrated.
So once again, where does the variety of the genes themselves come from in your theory?Stop asking that ridiculous question and look up de novo gene expression as I have repeatedly asked you and others to do.
I am not asking about the variety of the EXPRESSION of the genes, which is indeed within the realm of epigenetics.
I am asking about where the variety of the genes themselves comes from in your theory
Since there is no model for mutations that cause adaptive evolution.
Lactose persistence is nutrient chemical dependent; it is not caused by a mutation in any species, multiple mutations for persistence are known (e.g., http://www.newsde...id=1376)
People in academia already are convinced
You're going to have to be more specific when talking about the Fidalgo paper, JVK.
Don't the authors suggest a (independent)frame shift mutation model to explain:
[That] there is no model for mutations that cause adaptive evolution? - JVK
Their suggestion put forward in their abstract and expounded on in the body of their paper?
http://connection...chanisms
Creation
RealScience can't comprehend de novo expression in the context of Creation, epigenesis, or epistasis, for example.
Given the ridiculous mind-set of mutations theory, there's little hope for scientific progress here.
Creation with a capital C, as in Creationism?
You just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm dealing with somebody who values dogma over evidence....
I know you'll mince my words and misinterpret this as a white flag, but I'm done.
... your theory is incomplete because it does not explain where the genes themselves come from.
I've never seen a theorist have a problem with either epigenesis or epistasis. But your theory has a problem - it is incomplete because it does not explain where the genes themselves come from.
Biology: Epigenetic effects of nutrients and pheromones on epigenesis and epistasis cause adaptive evolution and eliminate nonsensical mutations theory.
People in academia already are convinced
@JVK - It is well documented that nutrient shortages increase mutation rates in bacteria, so nutrients do play a role.
... mutations,... All are observed, and natural selection has also been observed to operate on all of them.
...explain where all the gene variants come from without mutations, and write that up and submit it to a peer-reviewed genetics publication.
only the ignorant argue against the epigenetic effects of nutrient-dependent pheromone production that controls mutation rates.
No evidence suggests natural selection operates on mutations to cause adaptive evolution.
Epigenetic effects of nutrients and pheromones on epigenesis and epistasis cause adaptive evolution
and eliminate nonsensical mutations theory.
No evidence suggests natural selection operates on mutations to cause adaptive evolution. Epigenetic effects of nutrients and pheromones on epigenesis and epistasis cause adaptive evolution and eliminate nonsensical mutations theory.
JVK: ...in the context of ecological, social, neurogenic, and socio-cognitive niche construction that is required and controlled by sensory input, this idiot states:This coming from a CRANK who asserts that biology isn't subject to the laws of physics and maths. The reality is more likely that you are a domain squatter who stole/grabbed pheromones.com. This so inflated your ego that now think that your work as a humdrum technician makes you an Einstein of biologyBy finding a local minimum in conflict state space. Much as steel grows stronger via stimulated annealing. This works on computer models...
The added value here is that we have another example of an anonymous fool who thinks a contribution from another brand of nonsense is relevant to ecological, social, neurogenic, and socio-cognitive niche construction.
"On the other hand, since I don't have a degree, this may mean (to you and some others) that I have nothing of value to say, with or without peer review. Perhaps, I have no peers in academia."
James V. Kohl, May 27, 2004
The reality is more likely that you are a domain squatter who stole/grabbed pheromones.com. This so inflated your ego that now think that your work as a humdrum technician makes you an Einstein of biology
...I've been arguing for decades in favor of RNAs being the regulatory engines of genetic expression, and with a great deal of sophistication in their control of the genome.
This research should indicate maybe we want to put the brakes on for a while before we start doing stuff like this. Andromeda strain, anyone?
you ignorantly profess mutations theory as an explanation for adaptive evolution
@JVK - If I were arrogant enough to publish educated guesses I'd look like ...an idiot....Instead, you are parroting my position on the nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled microRNA / messenger RNA balance.
you ignorantly profess mutations theory as an explanation for adaptive evolution
Here I agree with >99% of geneticists that mutations are a CONTRIBUTOR to evolution.
@kochevnik - spot on regarding the degree and the ego trip.
JVK thinks he has no peers - LMAO!
You would be more fearsome it you learned some remedial maths. Having some credentials wouldn't hurt either, cowboy@kochevnik - spot on regarding the degree and the ego trip.@JVK I think the problem is that you do not recognize what an idiot you are to be laughing your ass off
JVK thinks he has no peers - LMAO!
You would be more fearsome it you learned some remedial maths. Having some credentials wouldn't hurt either, cowboy
Probably without realizing how far this harmless looking observation goes you have touched the foundations of all science and a portion of mathematics.
@JVK - If I were parroting you I wouldn't keep pointing out how you still haven't offered any evidence against mutations contributing to evolution.
Exerting a stress on a door will eventually deform or break the door. Here stress is well defined.
In epigenetics all the doors (molecular structures) you inherit don't always have the keys to open or shut the doors to keep out or let in external event(s).
You are looking for key makers. Chromatin was to be at least one maker of keys. The search for key makers continues.
What kind of idiot asks a scientist to provide evidence against a theory?
So is your CERTAINTY that nature doesn't use mutations as a component in adaptive evolution based on EVIDENCE or not?
... examples of genes where even detrimental mutations that affect a protein's function have low enough harm that they could (and do) persist for generations.
... examples of genes where even detrimental mutations that affect a protein's function have low enough harm that they could (and do) persist for generations.is a refutation of that.
@JVK - your evidence against evolution using mutations was that it would require simultaneous mutations.
Do you have any other 'evidence' that genomes don't use mutations, or any reason to think that genomes would be so wasteful as to not use mutations?
Mutations "theory" is nothing more than an idiot's view of the basic principles of biology. Look up 'de novo' gene expression.
Mutations "theory" is nothing more than an idiot's view of the basic principles of biology. Look up 'de novo' gene expression.
What he is trying to say is that you are not looking at the big picture. Complexity is the fundamental driving force of evolution through fractal recursive iteration.
Yes! Simultaneous mutations would be required for receptor-mediated nutrient uptake and for mutation-driven metabolism of the nutrient(s) to species-specific mutated pheromones that epigenetically effect the mutant behavior of conspecifics.
So you still haven't provided evidence again evolution using mutations, yet you call the theory ridiculous.
I can see that being true. My question is, is intelligent purpose driven evolution the next paradigm shift of evolution. No one seems to be comfortable giving a clear answer to this question.
The numberless molecular structures of nutrients are the key makers.
The cell provides the 'workbench or bank' for key makers. Cells must have (inherit) workbenches to assist all key makers.
The 'door' for a cell is a metaphor for any molecular structure of the cell's membrane that allows a mutual exchange of any activity between all that which is labeled external to the cell and all that which is labeled internal to the cell.
if the bacteria are in an environment where they can grow and thrive, each synonymous codon produces the same amount of protein,..But the moment we put them in an environment where they are starved of an amino acid, some codons produce a hundredfold more proteins than othersWe have a proverb: A friend in need is a friend indeed, which roughly means, the harsh conditions will reveal a true character of people. It corresponds the decreasing stability of physical and/or socioeconomic systems, which are nearing to phase transform: a noisy fluctuations will emerge, because the influence of individual factors becomes pronounced.
it also acts as a biological failsafe, allowing the near-complete shutdown in the production of OTHER PROTEINS as a way to preserve limited resourcesWhile I do consider this study rather insightful, I feel out of logics here - are we still talking about competitive production of the SYNONYMOUS PROTEINS here? Or did I rather miss something instead?
No model is the only model for anything imagined or thought.
You are rightfully subjected to demands of proof. Demands beyond the scope of models.
It seems you enjoy playing devil's advocate, not because you achieve meaningful dialogue but rather because you enjoy being contrarian.
In the beginning was physics. Adaptive evolution can not occur without it. Theoretically.
What occurred before the cell? Factually. You need the origin of the cell. What is the origin of genetic code? What is origin of molecules?
You must add me to your list of people that are senseless.
I insist.
If all you have is a ridiculous theory of mutation-caused adaptive evolution, you can only compare my model to your nonsense -- as we have seen.
- continued -
Since natural selection can use any source of variety, it is clear that natural selection WOULD use mutation-initiated variety to drive adaptive evolution if it were possible to do so.
Natural selection does not care where variety comes from...
Why would genomes evolve to accumulate something potentially harmful if they couldn't use it? You greatly underestimate how 'smart' genomes have evolved to be.
If the variety has nothing to do with nutrient uptake or pheromone-controlled reproduction, natural selection cannot select.
There are no molecular mechanisms that allow selection for non-olfactory/pheromonal input...
I have presented evidence that evolution should be able use mutations, plus evidence that genomes have evolved to ACCUMULATE variety from mutations.
If the variety has ANYTHING to do with reproduction (including surviving long enough to reproduce, having offspring that in turn reproduce, or even relatives that reproduce, etc.), then natural selection can select.
I just gave you the example sickle-cell example, in which molecular changes to hemoglobin are selected for...
Furthermore in the section on Pranting & Andersson's work the paper you cite clearly describes mutations having a role in antibiotic resistance in evolution.
What you have done is repeatedly present the same ridiculous theory with no evidence, and no citations to any published work from anyone who knows HOW mutations cause adaptive evolution.
selection can select FOR WHAT?
selected for HOW?
WHAT ROLE IS THAT? HOW DOES THEIR "ROLE" ALLOW MUTATIONS TO CAUSE ADAPTIVE EVOLUTION?
Select for increased representation in that species genome.By people with that mutation averaging more children that themselves survive to reproduce (...due to greater resistance...).
first a point mutation provides resistance to an antibiotic peptide...then a gene duplication mutation then decreases the growth cost, and... additional point mutations provide resistance without impairing growth, the extra gene is selected against.
Are you saying that increased representation automagically occurs when mutations result in more offspring via a series of mutations that cause greater resistance?
I'm saying that selection for nutrients leads to selection of pheromones that signal fitness.
Did you earn your GED yet?
"On the other hand, since I don't have a degree, this may mean (to you and some others) that I have nothing of value to say, with or without peer review. Perhaps, I have no peers in academia." James V. Kohl, May 27, 2004
Are you saying that increased representation automagically occurs when mutations result in more offspring via a series of mutations that cause greater resistance?
Are you SERIOUSLY saying that you don't understand how more offspring would result in increased representation?
Do you understand multiplication?
I'm saying that selection for nutrients leads to selection of pheromones that signal fitness.
JVK: Of course not. I'm asking how mutations contribute to increased representation.
JVK: I'm asking how mutations contribute to increased representation.
RealScience:Even the Kondrashov paper you cited showed that mutations can increase cold resistance, which opens up new habitats and reproductive opportunities.
RealScience:As can be seen in the above examples, multiplication is dependent on surviving long enough to reproduce AS WELL AS on nutrients and detecting potential mates.
And it is SELECTION that increases representation of some mutations.
RealScience:Even the Kondrashov paper you cited showed that mutations can increase cold resistance, which opens up new habitats and reproductive opportunities.
The new habitats are nutrient-dependent ecological niches, which are responsible for pheromone-controlled social niche construction.
you must introduce an effect of the mutation. What does the mutation cause that alters selection?
Selection for WHAT? HOW is the genetically-predisposed epistasis of cold-resistance selected?
...the mutation...allows the cold-tolerant fish to use that new niche, so the mutation CONTRIBUTES to the adaptive evolution.
What does the mutation cause...?
...the mutations caused... increased resistance to malaria, increased resistance to antibiotics, and increased resistance to cold.Is there a model for that?
HOW is the genetically-predisposed epistasis of cold-resistance selected?
By the fish being able to access new food sources and better escape from less-cold-tolerant predators and thus have more offspring.
What does the mutation cause...? HOW is the genetically-predisposed epistasis of cold-resistance selected? Is there a model for that?
...to access new food sources and better escape from less-cold-tolerant predators and thus have more offspring...
Is there not one among the evolutionary theorists who can tell us HOW a mutation contributes to adaptive evolution (e.g., by allowing cold-tolerant fish to use a new niche)?
But that just attests to how ridiculous that theory actually is because it explains nothing via biological cause and effect.
...I just had to drag myself back into this.
http://www.nature...238.html
Peppered moths. Point mutation identified. Obvious natural selection through predation.
... a documented error rate that leads to sequence changes.[and]... makes it darker, which allowed it to blend in...when its ecological niche changed due to the increased soot, which allowed it to avoid predation.
Sexual selection isn't he only selective pressure.
Did you read the P&A paper I cited? It documents the mechanisms in great detail.
Did you EVEN READ the Kondrashov paper YOU cited? The paragraph on the bottom left of page 3 gives the details.
[your]...theory... explains nothing via biological cause and effect.
Again, READ the papers.Why, you're comments only indicate your inability to the comprehend biological facts.
Do we now have predators causing mutations and adaptive evolution?
That's why I keep saying that selection is nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled, and not due to mutations.
"I can throw out results that appear to attest to mutations as the cause of adaptive evolution" - JVK
Do we now have predators causing mutations and adaptive evolution? Where's the part that addresses epigenetic control of protein synthesis by stress?
Those that avoided predation were selected for by their nutrient-dependent pheromone production, not by the change in color.
Moths that aren't eaten, eat and produce pheromones, you fool.
Are you trying to tell me that gene duplication is not nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled? "One of the main duplicated gene families are the olfactory receptor proteins [18,117–119] so perhaps their duplication may lead to an increase in sensitivity to a particular odour may be adaptive under certain conditions.'
"As any mutation, a duplication event by itself may also have consequences on organism's fitness."
You are GROSSLY misinterpreting this. The predators don't CAUSE the mutation.
Where's the part that addresses epigenetic control of protein synthesis by stress?
The mutation produces variety on which the predators act as a selection mechanism.
If a predator selectively eats one variety BECAUSE IT CANNOT SEE THE OTHER, that has NOTHING to do with pheromone production and selective mating and everything to do with merely NOT DYING.
Moths that aren't eaten, eat and produce pheromones...Selective mating is pheromone-dependent in the moths that aren't eaten (dying or dead). Natural selection (for food) and sexual selection (for pheromones) are required for adaptive evolution that you would like to be mutation-driven.
The honeybee model is fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with predation.
And the article attributes gene duplications to mutations: "As any mutation, a duplication event by itself may also have consequences on organism's fitness."
This is about selective predation based on the fact that the predator can't see certain phenotypes, not selective mating. What's automagical about camouflage?
This is about selective predation based on the fact that the predator can't see certain phenotypes, not selective mating. What's automagical about camouflage?
It's role in nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled sexual selection. Suddenly, you have visual stimuli that are primarily involved in altering the course of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled evolution. Is there a model for that?
What molecular mechanisms are directly effected by the camouflage? Why doesn't their camouflage make deer hunters invisible to deer, you idiot? There's a model for that!
@JVK - in genetics gene duplication events are considered a type of mutation.
And you haven't addressed sickle cell mutations, which are not duplications, or the post-duplication mutations restoring fitness in the P&A paper.
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/1/25.abstract
I suppose animals that can change their color and patterns on the fly (chameleons and cephalopods) also change their pheromone signatures on the fly as well and that's what allows them to hide?
Why would I address the sickle cell mutations when they exemplify only a foolish theory about mutation caused evolution
Evidence outside of the context of your model is irrelevant just because it doesn't fit your model?
That's the definition of dogma.-- especially in the context of what is now known about the molecular mechanisms common to all species.
Why would I address the sickle cell mutations when they exemplify only a foolish theory about mutation caused evolution
You have asked how mutations could be selected for.
Sickle cell mutations are selected for in the presence of malaria because ONE copy of a sickle-cell-mutation gene provides considerable resistance against malaria while only slightly decreasing fitness from oxygen transport. While the individual children are less fit in the absence of malaria, when malaria is prevalent average fitness of a carrier is raised.
Furthermore in malaria-prevalent regions humans have evolved to have a high enough occurrence of sickle-cell genes that having one copy is common while having two copies is less common, an example of adaptive evolution using mutations.
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
@JVK - are you SERIOUSLY asking that?
With or without pheromones, someone who is alive and fairly healthy will generally have more offspring than someone who is dead or very unhealthy.
No one in this thread has said that nutrients and pheromones are not INVOLVED. Being alive and healthier makes one better able to find food and synthesize pheromones, but that is an EFFECT rather than a CAUSE of the genetic change.
Without giving me some runaround copy pasted blurb, answer the question:
So the change in color (which beautifully corresponds to the changing environment color, hmmm...) is just coincidental to a simultaneous odor change that prevents predators from tracking the moths?
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
Like the moth example, a resistance to malaria is beneficial in the sense of even making it to mating age in the first place. Sexual selection is not the only selective factor. Surviving up to that point is a selective factor in itself.
With or without pheromones, someone who is alive and fairly healthy will generally have more offspring than someone who is dead or very unhealthy.
No one in this thread has said that nutrients and pheromones are not INVOLVED. Being alive and healthier makes one better able to find food and synthesize pheromones, but that is an EFFECT rather than a CAUSE of the genetic change.
How would I find or select a mate with the sickle cell trait? Do they have different colored wings to help them avoid predation, like moths?
Like the moth example, a resistance to malaria is beneficial in the sense of even making it to mating age in the first place. Sexual selection is not the only selective factor. Surviving up to that point is a selective factor in itself.
Surviving up to that point is nutrient-dependent. At that point, species survival is pheromone-dependent, which is why there is no model for mutation-driven speciation. Species diversity is nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled
In vertebrates and invertebrates for example, olfactory/pheromonal input causes gene activation
Surviving up to that point is nutrient-dependent.
It's also NOT DYING FROM MALARIA-dependent.
In vertebrates and invertebrates for example, olfactory/pheromonal input causes gene activation
You have been presented with a mutation (sickle cell) that is a gene sequence alteration, which is selected FOR in adaptive evolution, and thus CONTRADICTS your statement that mutations play NO ROLE in adaptive evolution.
DO you REALLY think that surviving to a mating age depends ONLY on nutrients?
Surviving up to that point is nutrient-dependent.
Do you think nutrition is the ONLY factor that influences whether humans survive to a mating age in a region where malaria is prevalent?
I saw what you wrote, but it does not answer the question.
I asked a very clear question:
Do you think nutrition is the ONLY factor that influences whether humans survive to a mating age in a region where malaria is prevalent?
Try providing an equally clear answer.
a resistance to malaria is beneficial in the sense of even making it to mating age in the first place... Surviving up to that point is a selective factor in itself.
With or without pheromones, someone who is alive and fairly healthy will generally have more offspring than someone who is dead or very unhealthy.
Surviving up to that point is nutrient-dependent.
As evidence of sickle-cell mutations being selected for, aroc91 and I wrote:
a resistance to malaria is beneficial in the sense of even making it to mating age in the first place... Surviving up to that point is a selective factor in itself.
With or without pheromones, someone who is alive and fairly healthy will generally have more offspring than someone who is dead or very unhealthy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=mutation selection&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C50
You should seek treatment for your pathological lying, James.
phys.org doesn't seem to like pluses. Anyway... Look up mutation and selection on the proper search engines and bask in the many hundreds of thousands of articles on the topic.
What would be the point?
You should try to present at something like the Evolutionary Biology Meeting at Marseilles. I'd pay to see that.
Look up mutation and selection on the proper search engines and bask in the many hundreds of thousands of articles on the topic.
What would be the point? You're attempting to compare ridiculous theory (Statistical Inference) to the biological fact that adaptive evolution is nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled. Inferred Natural Selection is not Natural.
What is it that you think is missing from my model or that is not also detailed in my published works? If mutations theory is the only thing missing, that's because it's the most riduculous theory I can imagine.
If you update your model to include mutations, I'll take a look at the rest of your model to see if anything else obvious is missing.
If you tell me HOW the sickle cell mutation CAUSES adaptive evolution (e.g., by enabling behavior that allows the mutation to be selected
It has repeatedly been pointed out to you that mutations CONTRIBUTE to adaptive evolution rather than CAUSING it.
Do you now agree that natural selection can select FOR mutations?
Resistance to a disease that prevents an organism from mating by killing it before it reaches maturity is obviously going to be selected for. This should be crystal clear.
Do you now agree that natural selection can select FOR mutations?
No.
Please clarify HOW organisms select for resistance to disease (e.g., before they are killed). Is there a model for that?
So you are ignoring the selection of sickle-cell mutations because that doesn't fit your theory....
In case you really don't understand natural selection I'll explain using the sickle-cell example:
The organisms DON'T select for resistance - selection is done TO the organism population. A given organism either has zero copies of the mutation and is likely to die from malaria, has one copy of the mutation and has significant resistance to malaria while not having significant sickle-cell disease, or has two copies and is highly resistant to malaria but is likely to die from sickle-cell disease instead.
No, I'm ignoring your example because there is no model for that.
You have somehow managed to conflate theory with adaptive evolution.
How do you define model? How is everything from Darwin's finches to antibiotic resistance evolution not a model for mutation and selection?
No, I'm ignoring your example because there is no model for that.
No, I'm ignoring your example because there is no model for that.
RealScience: So you ADMIT that you are ignoring a real-world example.No, I'm ignoring your example because there is no model for that.
JVK: My model of genetically predisposed epigenetically effected cause is reality, you idiot.
...what you think is a real-world example
I have modeled the mechanisms that link the common molecular biology of microbes to man. Antibiotic resistance occurs via epigenetic effects on alternative splicings
Vernon Ingram demonstrated that the only structural difference between normal adult hemoglobin and sickle-cell hemoglobin is the replacement of glutamic acid with valine in the β-globin amino acid chain (Ingram, 1957; 1959). At the DNA level, this corresponds to a single base change, from adenine to thymine, within the sixth codon (Marotta et al., 1977).
No. Antibiotic resistance occurs AT THE GENETIC LEVEL, not the epigenetic level. We have identified GENOMIC MUTATIONS in coding regions that result in new phenotypes, including resistance.
Who do you think you are debating here...?
Antibiotic resistance occurs AT THE GENETIC LEVEL, not the epigenetic level.
Cooperation between conspecifics is nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled as is all of adaptive evolution. Only foolish theorists, atheists, and agnostics cling to their theory of mutations...
Only foolish theorists, atheists, and agnostics (JVK)
What does religion have to do with this? (aroc91)
Who do you think you are debating here...
Test JVK's pet theory.
Bring adaptive evolution to standstill.
Control epigenetic effects of nutrients and pheromones to a point where adaptive evolution is suspended in time.
True. I'm not discounting epigenetics and splicing as a means of granting a population variety, but I have yet to find a case where splicing was responsible for antibiotic resistance.
@aroc - I also haven't seen.... But I also haven't looked... and given the billions-of-years evolutionary arms race between microbes and antibiotics from other microbes, I would be surprised if it hadn't evolved.
Only foolish theorists, atheists, and agnostics...(JVK)
What does religion have to do with this?(aroc91)
If anything religion should make JVK sure that natural selection would utilize mutations if mutations occur.
Who do you think you are debating here...
@JVK - we are obviously debating someone so arrogant...
How does what's currently known about the molecular epigenetics of alternative splicing suggest that it is not the cause of antibiotic resistance?
It enables some to embrace the complexity of the cell (i.e., in fact), while others are trying to grasp the complexity of the cosmos (i.e., in theory).
How does what's currently known about the molecular epigenetics of alternative splicing suggest that it is not the cause of antibiotic resistance?
The papers I have provided you have shown point mutations resulting in codon changes resulting in amino acid changes resulting in protein structure changes that alter the way those proteins are affected by antibiotics, not alternative splicing.
The single base changes and the protein structure changes that result from them have been identified.
Not sure how to convey this more clearly.
The papers I have provided you have shown point mutations resulting in codon changes resulting in amino acid changes resulting in protein structure changes that alter the way those proteins are affected by antibiotics, not alternative splicing.
I'm not interested in reading about point mutations as cause. There is no model for that!
Where do the amino acids come from?
And their role in adaptive evolution is still magical.
Place it in the context of a model of adaptive evolution. You're doing the same thing as you did with the moth example. Focus on one piece of a puzzle in one species, and you go nowhere. Is that your intent?
"In Drosophila, recent studies have further suggested that a large fraction of noncoding DNA divergence observed between species may be the product of recurrent adaptive substitution. Similar studies in humans have revealed a more complex pattern, with signatures of recurrent positive selection being largely concentrated in conserved noncoding DNA elements."
http://www.ncbi.n...22399458
Tell us how you get from codon changes resulting in amino acid changes in microbes to nutrient selection, control of reproduction and immune system function in insect species. What does adaptive substitution mean to you? Is it a MUTATION -- in your ridiculous theory?
Place it in the context of a model of adaptive evolution. You're doing the same thing as you did with the moth example... Is that your intent?
My intent is to get you to understand selective processes besides pheromone-driven sexual selection. These are biology 101 concepts.
For example: "the similarity between the distributions of endemic malaria and those of the thalassemias and sickle cell anemia led to the hypothesis that disease carriers were at a selective advantage where falciparum malaria was common (13, 14). More recent studies of candidate genes support roles for selection on energy metabolism (15), sodium homeostasis (16, 17), and the ability to digest lactose from milk (18, 19) and starch from plants (20)."
Recent studies are the issue here, not ridiculous mutations theory. Educate yourself!
@JVK - Anyone who has watched this discussion will see that you have provided NO evidence to support your statements that mutations play no role in adaptive evolution...
From that same study:
"Our results extend upon and are complementary to results of previous scans for natural selection in humans"
They even reference the paper "Natural selection has driven population differentiation in modern humans".
without telling us what role they play in either Natural Selection (i.e., for WHAT?)
Would you like alternative splicing to be responsible for some variety but mutations for other variety associated with adaptive evolution?
Would you like alternative splicing to be responsible for some variety but mutations for other variety associated with adaptive evolution?
It does not matter what we would like - what matters is what natural selection actually does.
Mutations are responsible for variations in gene sequences. Some mutations are point changes (SNPs), some are much bigger (reversals, duplications, deletions, chromosomes splitting and joining). Some affect transcription, some affect proteins produced, some affect RNAs produced.
Epigenetic changes are changes to the accessiblity of the genes, and strongly affect transcription and thus RNAs.
RNAs are the main computational engines of the cell, managing which proteins are produced at which times.
All play roles in evolution through natural selection.
That's because I'm not the one who said mutations play a role in adaptive evolution. I said they didn't; there is no evidence that they do; and no model suggests they do.
either Natural Selection (i.e., for WHAT?)
or in Sexual Selection (for WHAT?)
Is there a model for that?
Here's a model- http://www.iecn.u...lia3.pdf
Is there a model for that?
@JVK - You have already been presented examples, such as sickle-cell mutations. If you truly have any experience in the field, you will know that that sickle-cell mutations have been well modeled, and that the models even even explaining the frequency to which the mutations accumulate relative to the prevalence of malaria.
either Natural Selection (i.e., for WHAT?)
or in Sexual Selection (for WHAT?)
...finding food, mating, and surviving in the first place to do both of those things.
What part of "selection on energy metabolism" (see below) do you not understand in the context of sickle cell "mutation" vs nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled?
How does any mutation promote: ...finding food, mating, and surviving in the first place to do both of those things.
JVK:How does any mutation promote...
Did you fail to read the paper on sickle cell mutations, or fail to comprehend it?
Here it is again: http://www.nature...-8756219
Selection does not occur for mutations at the population levelis WRONG.
Reproductive isolation can arise with little or no morphological differentiation http://www.scienc...64.short That means mutations associated with visual input are not selected.
kevinrtrs
Jan 21, 2013The level of complexity within the cell has just gone up ANOTHER step.
Here the language is immensely informative: Codes, Hidden Codes, Decyphering of a code, translation, synonymous codes. I can go on and on. Clearly these codes and decoding are not somethings that can happen by chance since there is no materialistic way to create a code and its decoding counterpart. There just is none.
The only way codes and their decoding measures can arise is through intelligence. They are completely independent of the materialistic implementation. AND THEY ARE ABSTRACT.