Most of us "feel" that based on chemical abundances at least simple life is probably common but "feeling" isn't science.
There are alien bases on the moon, no one believes; there seem an artificial plateau on Venus, no one mentions; there are some "man-made" stone hand craft found on Mars, nobody seems interested; there are over 59 species of aliens on earth, no one pays attention.
And a few hundred years is nothing compared to how different we might be to most civilization's development.
The possibility that our planet is the only speck of dust containing complex life in the entire universe is, exactly ZEROBut the chances of intelligent life like us surviving for more than a thousand years after an industrial revolution is also zero.
"This idea of the human condition being transitional was reflected in the writings of Existentialist Friedrich Nietzsche: "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman--a rope over an abyss. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end..."""Beer drinkers are incapable of subtle thought." Nietzsche
"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal."-Leo Tolstoy
Blotto the nitwit nihilist has found nothing to approve of in humanity. So it follows that he wishes for humanity to endNaw just you.
I'll pose the "problem" from another angle. What if the attempts to devise a formula were only by those who have never witnessed an alien craft that surpasses earth technology by leaps and bounds? What if the witnesses of these craft- A U.S. president, astronaut, fighter pilots, airline pilots, and 120 top security nuclear missile site military personnel reported seeing them? It would make any formula superfluous.-Telekinetic
It seems that they are here, folks.
-FrankShitfaceIt seems that they are here, folks.
No, no they aren't.
Now I have heard of semitransparent life on Mars...
-FrankShitface aka BlottoIt seems that they are here, folks.
No, no they aren't.
Machines will have no desire to propagate beyond what they need to survive, and we should not expect to hear from them. In a few hundred years machines will be all that remains of what was human.
...
What the galaxy is most likely filled with, are AI singularities, successors to organic intelligence, existing to exist because that is what they were programmed to do.
...
But the chances of intelligent life like us surviving for more than a thousand years after an industrial revolution is also zero.
Telekinetic Sep 02, 2011 Rank: 1.9 / 5 (9):-Tel
"About 5 years ago, I witnessed a UFO of the silver cigar tube type at approximately 500 feet in the air. It was dusk but there was still plenty of light to see it clearly. It was making a slow trajectory above a very heavily wooded area and with binoculars, I could see that there were no wings, tail assembly, ailerons, markings, or sound. There was a narrow slit in the front that I assume was for visibility. Its movement was completely straight and was definitely not a gas filled blimp. This is absolutely not fiction, and I asked......."
In fact the Brutish Museum is a world renowned depository of alien life forms and is named in honour of the greatest alientoligist in modern history, George W Bush, who also discovered his navel.
Blotto the nitwit nihilist has found nothing to approve of in humanity. So it follows that he wishes for humanity to end and lifeless machines take over. Go Ducks
I think our universe is old enough and hospitable enough to have had many extraterrestrial civilizations for over millions of years.
I think our universe is old enough and hospitable enough to have had many extraterrestrial civilizations for over millions of years.
That is the point where your claims fall down of course. Given that there have been planets with suitable chemical abundances around for some 8 billion years, even if there were only one other technilogical race in our galaxy, they would most likely have been here for at least a billion years. Even with our level of technology, we could put spy satellites in orbit and monitor the planet without using antiquated "blimp-like" craft based on stories from 1950's sci-fi magazines.
-shinobiBlotto the nitwit nihilist has found nothing to approve of in humanity. So it follows that he wishes for humanity to end and lifeless machines take over. Go Ducks
This is funny coming from someone that finds nothing to approve of in roughly half the population of the U.S. and more than a handful of forum members here. Go Derps
.. Even with our level of technology, we could put spy satellites in orbit and monitor the planet without using antiquated "blimp-like" craft based on stories from 1950's sci-fi magazines.
How does it disprove my point to say that extraterrestrial civilizations have been around for millions of years and not "a" billion.
Why do you assume they would come from our galaxy,
or develop in the same timeframe as ours?
It seems (to me) that the DE is missing a factor esp. regarding present SETI. Odds a civilization will abandon electromagnetic broadcasting. .. I suppose radar detectors might also show up.
.. why the 22nd amendment was added ..
whether for military reasons, scientific inquiry, or something dreadful.
-AAwhether for military reasons, scientific inquiry, or something dreadful.
Such as? I mean any of the three?
There are no military reasons, scientific ones or 'dreadful' ones that you could name that aren't completely ludicrous.
"Being that it was a time of war, an exception was made" NO! the fact it was war didnt matter. it was that the 22nd amendment didnt exist yet just like you admit when you say why the 22nd amendment was added......and you are a fucking idiot if you think the constitution can be amended so simply by obama or anyone. do you know anything about america or just your fantasies?-jsdarkdestruction aka Blotto's possible sock puppet
-AAwhether for military reasons, scientific inquiry, or something dreadful.
Such as? I mean any of the three?
There are no military reasons, scientific ones or 'dreadful' ones that you could name that aren't completely ludicrous.
And you know this...how?
And you know this...how?
Simple & to the point:
"At last, how many alien civilizations are there?"
--> more than enough <--
A rough guesstimate for the number of planets in the observable portion of the universe: 170 billion (observable galaxies) multiplied by 300 billion (number of stars in our own galaxy) multiplied by 1.6 (average number of planets per star), equals 81.6 sextillion or 81,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the observable universe. it's a rough guesstimate but it's well inside the ballpark. BTW there are fewer grains of sand on planet earth than than number. what are the odds that only *ONE* of those planets has the special mix of characteristics for life? virtually zero. what are the odds that two or more of those 81 sextillion support life? virtually guaranteed. we may not have detected them with 21st century technology but they are out there
Life is not "civilization"
poor Boast of Blotto
-FrankHerbuttpoor Boast of Blotto
You thought you were logged into Obama_socks, didn't you?
I'm assuming this is your oldest and most likely only non-trolling account. Well, that's over, now isn't it?
-AAAnd you know this...how?
Under the assumption that aliens are here (which I think is not at all likely - at least not in physical form):
We can make a very few definite statements about them
1) They have managed to go undetected
2) They have traversed significant distances in space
Conculsions:
I) By 1 and 2 they are significantly more advanced than as. So there's no scientific reason for them to be here.
II) By 2 they have a different physiology (having evolved elswhere) - so Earth cannot possibly be of interest to them in terms of living space.
III) Mining asteroids is far easier than mining something down a gravity well (once you have the ability to traverse space). So it can't be for the resources.
IV) 'Dreadful' reasons require that we would actually be of any value whatsoever to them. How much value is a an amoeba (or a bird) to you?
If they're watching, then they're probably doing so via remote.
There's nothing in your visual that indicates hallucination or any other problemThankyou dr pussytard the eminent brainial engineer.
I rarely have problems with anyone else except for Blotto and his sock puppets.-As evinced by your ratings. Nobody uprates you except your suckpuppets. Nobody likes ignorant liars.
Tachyon8491 is far more intelligent and knowledgeable than ISo is a toadstool. This proves nothing.
1)Their ships are cloaked most of the time.As well as their glassy semitransparent heads as I understand it.
Yet all we see is bland isotropy in all directions we look. Therefore there are only two possibilitiesTypical religionist leap-of-faith. Advanced machine life would be very economical in their resource use. We wouldnt see broadcast communication for one thing. They could not hide a waste heat signature.
The evidence that we are NOT alone in this universe, nor in this galaxy, is on record already.
I'm sure that they understand full well what WE are capable of, having been chased by our fighter planes at least since WW2.
Crop circles seem to have meaning or a code which haven't been cracked yet. They may just be an expression of alien art.Crop circles have been thoroughly and convincingly and completely debunked, usually by the people who have admitted to creating them.
Ah, the Boast of Blotto cranks out his three-transistor excuse for a mind again: "Crop circles have been thoroughly debunked" - admittedly there are a miserable few that are human-made, true crop circles defy such effort. No doubt Blotto has spent years studying the most complex of them, up-close, actually there, and, as we know he is more published than Jenny Randles, or Einstein for that matter, and internationally famous, we really need to take account of his "opinion."-Tachyon
And it's been proven that the more complex crop circles are, indeed, genuine, and have not been created by men walking with planks.Well sure, in your mind, but thats full of all sorts of ratty and smelly stuff isnt it? What do you mean by 'proven' exactly? Aliens in photos? Interviews with aliens? Little tufts of radioactive grass? Unexplained, blinding headaches? But youve been getting those since you were a little girl havent you? The menstruation thing-
where he never has any solid evidence to back up his highly imaginative musings."Doug and Dave reportedly made more than 200 crop circles from 1978–1991 and claimed to be responsible for most if not all circles made prior to 1987"
A YouTube presentation of intricate crop circles that are impossible for even 20 men to create overnight...in the dark."There have been cases in which researchers declared crop circles to be "the real thing", only to be confronted with the people who created the circle and documented the fraud"
I believe each one to be created by extraterrestrials-even when shown evidence that MOST have been PROVEN to be hoaxes.
and that each one is a message for the people of Earth.Yah they are saying 'STFU and GTFO you carking dimwit.
some innocent but loony people come forth to say that they did it."Scientific American published an article by Matt Ridley, who started making crop circles in northern England in 1991. He wrote about how easy it is to develop techniques using simple tools that can easily fool later observers. He wrote about how easy it is to develop techniques using simple tools that can easily fool later observers. He reported on "expert" sources such as the Wall Street Journal, who had been easily fooled..."
Since I have made a promise to myself to avoid using techno-speak while on this user nameAs opposed to your other user names eh? Not even smart enough to avoid confession, obama_socks. Please go back to your schoolroom and try studying enough science to get into highschool.
-LenGhoulSince I have made a promise to myself to avoid using techno-speak while on this user nameAs opposed to your other user names eh? Not even smart enough to avoid confession, obama_socks. Please go back to your schoolroom and try studying enough science to get into highschool.
And leave Physorg to those with a clue.
"The missile silo incidents are interesting, as are many military incidents." - ModernmysticNo this post of yours is the most egregious collection of hyperbole which could ever be made.
That is the most empty and pointless statement you can make. It nullifies anything that comes after it. In fact, only another dunderhead would consider you to have anything valuable to add. The military officials whose veracity you question were given the kind of responsibility of secrecy and guardianship that our lives as civilians depend on. Their testimony is the only testimony that can be believed- from anyone anywhere.
Considering all of the monumental variables that would have to be overcome to achieve efficient interstellar travel, curiosity alone would be the reason for aliens to stop here.
Not to make crop circles, impersonate our feedstock, or return en mass to take over after careful study.
... probes .. that can reach ~2% of the speed of light. .. spanning the galaxy in about 10 million years, ..
Self replicating probes require materials to replicate, quite a varied list I might add ..
THink of how many different places on earth the materials would have to come from to construct the first fleet of probes.
This fleet travelling at 1% c would take 900 years to reach the CLOSEST system, ..
then would have to detect a planetary body with the right minerals and environment for construction ...
Let's just say for the sake of argument that I accept all the "evidence" presented here. It's still not proof of extraterrestrial intelligences from different solar systems.
I see your objection now, Ghost. These UFO's were an invention of the Luftwaffe. You believe they should get the credit and not some fictitious alien race.Well of course they are an application of die Glocke, Nazi zero point Energy tech, as imported into this country via operation paperclip and installed at area 51. Look it up.
Above is the profile page of lite. The only poster that uses or has ever used the term "pussytard" is GhostofOtto1923. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury...Sorry noob the pussytard moniker was first used by - who else? - vendicar decarian, as everyone knows. And as everyone also knows, VD is also at area 51.
We have been tracking Blotto's fervor for the dead NAZI Otto Skorzeny for many years just for fun.Naw you've been accusing me of that under the multiple sickpuppets pirouette/ritchiegut/russkiye/pussyville/obamatard etc because I can't help making fun of your profound ignorance and your puzzling desire to show it off. Let's see what have we got?
The site is interesting. However, my conclusion is that the object is RC-Would that be alien or domestic RC pussytard?
where the appendage could be folded for travel when not in use-Sounds pretty elaborate for a hoax eh?
Asymmetrical... It probably swayed...alien probe-So the phony NASA engineer fails to appreciate that the hoaxers shooped an asymmetric vehicle to imply that it WAS mysterious alien tech. And WHY would aliens make wobbly vehicles? And if it was earthly RC how could it POSSIBLY fly?
avoid using techno-speakAhaahaaaaha you moron.
437 years to Alpha Centauri, but that's just the start.
Indeed. Sorry on the 900 years, was best guessing the time to achieve .01c.
I have never heard of aluminum sail tech for spaceflight..
In other words, the Fermi Paradox is trivial to solve
There is not one shred of credible hard evidence of alien civilizations visiting Earth.
There is not one shred of credible hard evidence of alien civilizations in the wider galaxy.
There is not one shred of credible hard evidence of alien civilizations in the universe.
GIVEN that the universe is as old as it is, and GIVEN that the elements necessary for life have been in abundance for billions of years it's VERY improbable that we're the first civilization to evolve.
.. it's likely that civilization or technological civilization is EXTREMELY rare or even singular.
It's a few days and the same to slow down at the other end using the same method.
WOW! I was picturing the ION drive on dawn that takes 4 days to reach 60mph. Does it work off EM? (the sail that is)
We have been tracking Blotto's fervor for the dead NAZI Otto Skorzeny for many years just for fun.Naw you've been accusing me of that under the multiple sickpuppets pirouette/ritchiegut/russkiye/pussyville/obamatard etc because I can't help making fun of your profound ignorance and your puzzling desire to show it off. Let's see what have we got?-Blotto
Nope...you've got the wrong guy. None of those other names are mine except for Obama_socks, and I have been making fun of YOUR profound ignorance and your strange insistence on showing it off for many years. However, I DID read Pussycateyes' reference to your profile under the name TheGhostofOtto1932 where you changed your 1923 to 1932 so that you could use the name of your NAZI hero, Otto Skorzeny, presumably as your nom de plume...which is just another of your sock puppets. Now you choose to downplay and backpedal the fact that your tirades on "Empire" are just one result of your mental illnesses.
@modernmystic wrote: "OTOH maybe we ARE seeing said engineering and we just aren't recognizing it for what it is any more than an ant recognizes a skyscraper for what it is..."-Neinsense99
According to our friend G'kar, they walk near Sigma 957.
https://www.youtu...W8Deq8vE
"Wrong again, all you can say is that IF they exist THEN they have chosen not to make overt contact. You need to learn a little statistics."
It is most obvious that E.T.s are here already and interacting with the U.S. government, and possibly with other world gov'ts.
Since E.T.s are so far advanced technologically than humans by a possible billion years or more, it is not too much a stretch to figure out that their propulsion system(s) are beyond what even our imaginations would allow. ... I have seen 2 of their spacecraft a little over a year ago where they fly over the mountains.
Given the age of the universe, the distance between stars and worlds millenia ago and the continuing expansion, and the time it apparently has taken on Earth for life to begin and evolve, it is likely (this is unscientific but probably correct) that multiple civilizations are evolving simultaneously ..
i think this equation is the most silly thing to come from a scientists mind. How can anyone ever make a estimate of alien civilisations with only one to go on,
whats more a intelligent alien race able to come to earth if they wanted us to know of there existance we would if they didnt we would not. It is almost always nobodys that they contact, come on! think about it why would they let a few illiterate hill billys know.
At last, how many alien civilizations are there?
Anyone who was actually civilized would do good just because it is the right thing to do.What an oddly secular thing to say. Have you fallen from grace QC?
Since when are eyewitness accounts worthless?UFOs don't have license plates. The problem with eyewitness accounts of UFOs is that they are usually from people like pussytard.
Police Officer: Our eyewitness got the license plate of the perp.
Since when are eyewitness accounts worthless?
Once a machine mind emerges, organics will not be able to compete with it because competition itself is wasteful and organics cannot do without it.
Since when are eyewitness accounts worthless?
Since you chose to post in phys.org which is a scientific forum. Scientific evidence must be repeatable which is why, for example, the "WOW Signal" is not considered to be a valid detection of an extra-solar non-natural signal.
if alien civilsations exist, every suitable planet will, by now, be populated.
Since when are eyewitness accounts worthless?
Since you chose to post in phys.org which is a scientific forum. Scientific evidence must be repeatable which is why, for example, the "WOW Signal" is not considered to be a valid detection of an extra-solar non-natural signal.
Look into the cover-up and subsequent confession by Governor Fife Symington of Arizona regarding the UFO sighting over Phoenix. ..
Asteroid impacts throughout the Earth's history would have blasted large quantities of material into space. Much of that material would be moving at above the Solar System's escape velocity, and would contain biological material.
What scientific evidence do you have for an extra-solar origin for whatever was supposedly seen?
What is the procedure for obtaining access to the samples of the object so that I can have independent tests on them?
As I said, this is a science-based forum, not a civil court or a soapbox for cranks, so let's see your test results.
wow, those sites are really grasping at straws there, as are you obama socks. perhaps its time to resume the medication the doctor gave you to stop the voices?
so we would an omnidirectional beacon with a detectable range of 2000 lightyears if we want to beat the statistics, what kind of beacon could do that?
The given estimate for the distance of alien civilisations overlooks that aliens will emigrate. It seems feasible that, if alien civilsations exist, every suitable planet will, by now, be populated.-Duncanl
In my opinion, life would be more likely to exist around the stars that came from the same nebula as our sun, right?
What is the procedure for obtaining access to the samples of the object so that I can have independent tests on them?
I'll present YOU with samples to run tests in YOUR lab? You're lower than a lummox to claim to have access to a facility or even the wherewithal (money) to run independent tests.
It's understandable to doubt one witness, but thousands of witnesses to the same event? An illusion of mass hysteria brought on by religious fervor?
You don't want to believe it because you're in fear of it.
While no matter (or radiation) can travel faster than light I'm not sure the same speed limit applies to the manipulatin of spacetime itself. We know it can be stretched and compressed - but whether that strecthing/compression has a speed limit is anyone's guess (and also a subject of the LIGO missions)
Basically it's like a medieval monk declaring that smoke, and fire signals are the only means for a civilization to communicate.
Do we know what will eventually replace radio? Of course not, we haven't developed it yet.
You are correct. It would be done overtly and secretly to avert suspicion to keep the public from knowing.
I only deal with reason and logic. My own sightings of 2 E.T. spacecraft ...
It seems feasible that, if alien civilsations exist, every suitable planet will, by now, be populated.
What is the procedure for obtaining access to the samples of the object so that I can have independent tests on them? -Fleetfoot
I'll present YOU with samples to run tests in YOUR lab? You're lower than a lummox to claim to have access to a facility or even the wherewithal (money) to run independent tests. -Telekinetic
I claimed nothing of the kind, you need to learn to read.-
Fleetfoot
I can read your first statement as ..."so that I can have independent tests run on them." Who would "I" be in that statement, Fleetwood?
The people running the tests would be anyone but the participants of this thread (at least), or they wouldn't be "independent tests", would they? The only part I would play would be to fill in whatever forms are needed to start the process.
What scientific evidence do you have for an extra-solar origin for whatever was supposedly seen?You heard them - eyewitLess accounts. And superior shooping skills.
What is the procedure for obtaining access to the samples of the object so that I can have independent tests on them?http://www.fbi.gov/
As I said, this is a science-based forum, not a civil court or a soapbox for cranksThat's a decidedly noobian question. Perhaps aliens can fix this for us.
The people running the tests would be anyone but the participants of this thread (at least), or they wouldn't be "independent tests", would they? The only part I would play would be to fill in whatever forms are needed to start the process.
This is the point where the aliens shake their heads in disgust and zoom away at high speeds upon realizing what an ignoramus you are. Thanks to you, Fleafoot, we'll never make contact.
-FleetfootThe people running the tests would be anyone but the participants of this thread (at least), or they wouldn't be "independent tests", would they? The only part I would play would be to fill in whatever forms are needed to start the process.
This is the point where the aliens shake their heads in disgust and zoom away at high speeds upon realizing what an ignoramus you are. Thanks to you, Fleafoot, we'll never make contact.
Or to put it more clearly, as you well know, there are no samples, no existing analyses and no evidence whatsoever.
-FlatfootIt seems feasible that, if alien civilsations exist, every suitable planet will, by now, be populated.
Ours wasn't, or we would never have had the chance to evolve, we wouldn't be here.
" VendicarD 2 minutes ago Rank: not rated yet-Telekinetic
I have exactly 0 sock puppets, for rationalism always prevails.
"I'm asking you if you are the user of the sockpuppet "lite"" - Telekinetic
Well, that solves that, doesn't it, Ghost?
Do we know what will eventually replace radio? Of course not, we haven't developed it yet.
VendicarD 2 minutes ago Rank: not rated ...Your dysfunction is really starting to show. Fleetfoot wasnt being literal in saying that 'he' would have samples tested. Dont you know that?
Well, that solves that, doesn't it, Ghost?
VendicarD 2 minutes ago Rank: not rated ...
Well, that solves that, doesn't it, Ghost?-Telekinetic
Great detective work, TK...Blotto is outed.And ask VD if he was the first one to use 'pussytard' when referring to the tard named pussy. Go ahead, ask him.-Blotto
Actually, after going over Pussycateyes old posts...and noting that she was continually harassed and mentally poked by Blotto in each thread where she commented...and where Blotto was consistently off-topic so that he could attempt to push her buttons and accuse her of being other people, just like what he has been doing to me and several others...I also noticed that VendicarD, who was Vendicar_Decarian at the time, treated Pussycat quite nicely even though they disagreed. VD never called her pussytard, even after Blotto began calling her that. I think VD was trying to be a gentleman in the presence of a lady, and that was commendable.
Dr. J. Allen Hynek in a speech to the U.N.:
http://www.extrac...ssue.pdf
Yes you certainly are.
Ours wasn't, or we would never have had the chance to evolve, we wouldn't be here.-Flatfoot
Your answer makes no sense. Are you saying that our suitable planet is NOT populated by aliens?
How can you be so certain?
... then the whole notion of "settling on planets" or "spreading throughout the universe" becomes moot. Because once you can live in space - why would you go back down to a planet?
This planet would have been covered by THEIR cities before the first amphibians crawled out of our oceans
Indeed, however the simple need for more matter and energy to power your hive mind doesn't go away
But that power need isn't infinite. Solar or simple fusion may well suffice. And raw materials are plenty in places that don't have a significant gravity well.
Suppose you have an advanced civilization. That would mean to me:
a) body modification and/or adaptation to virtually any environment (even open space)
b) possible immortality save for accidents (which would implicate heavy use of a), ..
They may need spaceships. But that's about it.
This planet would have been covered by THEIR cities before the first amphibians crawled out of our oceansI'll put a qualifier on that:-antiaiias
Suppose you have an advanced civilization. That would mean to me:
a) body modification and/or adaptation to virtually any environment (even open space)
b) possible immortality save for accidents (which would implicate heavy use of a), since an immortal being will have an entirely different appraisal of what constitutes 'acceptable risk' than one as short lived as humans)
Your estimations are valid. Their physiology may be unlike anything we've ever known. We are creatures of our own environment, but THEY may be far more adaptable than we...to ANY environment and all conditions. They may also have an appearance that varies according to the human observer's ability to perceive that appearance...or according to what is more acceptable to the human mind in terms of what is beautiful and what is ugly or horrific.
Pussycateyes old posts...and noting that she was continually harassed and mentally poked by Blotto in each thread where she commentedWhenever she/you post ignorant lying bullshit you should be expected to be called upon it. Thats the way it works.
where Blotto was consistently off-topic so that he could attempt to push her buttons and accuse her of being other peopleWhenever she/you post ignorant lying bullshit you should be expected to be called upon it. Thats the way it works.
Now here's the question: What do beings that are pretty much impervious to environmental factors need cities (or structures of any kind) for? They may need spaceships. But that's about it.
Indeed, however the simple need for more matter and energy to power your hive mind doesn't go away
But that power need isn't infinite. Solar or simple fusion may well suffice. And raw materials are plenty in places that don't have a significant gravity well.
a) body modification and/or adaptation to virtually any environment (even open space) b) possible immortality save for accidents (which would implicate heavy use of a), since an immortal being will have an entirely different appraisal of what constitutes 'acceptable risk' than one as short lived as humans)You realize youre describing machines right?
Now here's the question: What do beings that are pretty much impervious to environmental factors need cities (or structures of any kind) for? They may need spaceships. But that's about it.Machines would need to be repaired as you point out. They would be occupied in collecting info and communicating it across great distances, so they would have specialized remotes which would also need manufacturing and repair, as well as their transport.
I agree. They may have no need to land on the surface at all, and can observe from the air.Indeed. They can stir up the crops artistically, mutilate cattle artistically, and carve nazca lines artistically, all from the comfort of their saucers.
Let me offer a very speculative alternative. A self-repairing and self-replicating probe must be able to manipulate matter at the atomic scale, for example as IBM did in the 90's with AFM.Suppose the cryonics industry cracks the problem of freezing and thawing people. In solid form, a person could be dismantled atom by atom, the data sent via the galactic network and rebuilt using local material at the destination. That is effectively teleporting at the speed of light, making physical spaceships obsolete.-Fleetfoot in answer to antialias
The same data file could be used to provide immortality as an side-effect. In the event of unplanned death, the person would simply be reconstructed from their latest 'backup'.
I think that Self-repairing and self-replicating would require that every cell would need to be transmuted into a second version of the "old body" since the old may no longer be useful and rendered insubstantial. I like your idea of programmable life.
Blotto to carry on his crusade of strange musings for the remainder of his time on Physorg-against unbounded ignorance, like your recent post that fish with legs had to have emerged in south africa because this is where we evolved? YOU BET.
but will be happy to see him remove his stench from this once excellent website. Absolutely pathetic (shakes head).-like your recent post that FISH with LEGS had to have emerged in south africa because this is where WE evolved? YOU BET.
Let me offer a very speculative alternative. A self-repairing and self-replicating probe must be able to manipulate matter at the atomic scale
The same data file could be used to provide immortality as an side-effect.
They may also have an appearance that varies according to the human observer's ability to perceive that appearance
Let me offer a very speculative alternative. A self-repairing and self-replicating probe must be able to manipulate matter at the atomic scale, for example as IBM did in the 90's with AFM.
I think that Self-repairing and self-replicating would require that every cell would need to be transmuted into a second version of the "old body" since the old may no longer be useful and rendered insubstantial.
-FleetfootLet me offer a very speculative alternative. A self-repairing and self-replicating probe must be able to manipulate matter at the atomic scale, for example as IBM did in the 90's with AFM.
I think that Self-repairing and self-replicating would require that every cell would need to be transmuted into a second version of the "old body" since the old may no longer be useful and rendered insubstantial.
You may have missed the earlier conversation, "self-repairing and self-replicating" referred to a design of unmanned probe based on solar sail propulsion, not to lifeforms.
As I said, this is highly speculative but doesn't need any unknown physics, just development of existing technologies:
http://www.phys.s...%202.pdf
-antialiasThey may also have an appearance that varies according to the human observer's ability to perceive that appearance
But still you have failed to address the main point: WHY would they want to walk among us? If they're here for observation then that can be had much more easily via bugs/remote vieweing.
There's really no point for an alien to be here.
Let me offer a very speculative alternative. A self-repairing and self-replicating probe must be able to manipulate matter at the atomic scale
That sounds reasonable. I actually think that is something we should be researching right now. We know it's doable.
this would make mining for materials .. obsolete.
The same data file could be used to provide immortality as an side-effect.
A copy does not grant immortality. Only as much as a clone does
And why would one want to transmit their body into an environment for which it is not suited?
I actually think that is something we should be researching right now. We know it's doable.
The paper I cited a few posts later lists some recent key funding.
When discussing life not all the possibilities are known.
Ask yourself if assuming the ability to eventually synthesize life is a Drake game changer.
I think that there is much for aliens to learn from us and our environs
We ARE an interesting lot after all,
The brain would be copied exactly, including character and memory.
I think that there is much for aliens to learn from us and our environsSuch as? And please limit yourself to those things that need PHYSICAL presence of aliens posing as humans. Because I really can't think of one.-antialias
Not being privy to E.T. thought and purpose, I surmise that they may wish to "go native" either for entertainment, or for impregnating with their DNA or being impregnated BY human DNA. Their race may have become weakened by too much inbreeding. If they are compatible enough with humans physically, they could take advantage of human sexuality and proclivity for sexual indiscretions so that they could build a stronger race in all, or most aspects. If they regard humans as little more than worms and insects, then they wouldn't want our DNA and have little, if anything, to do with us in a sexually physical sense. They might also have their version of "cabin fever" and want a bit of excitement. If so, then that would make them more human-like.
We ARE an interesting lot after all,
About as interesting as birds are to ornithologists (at best).
Don't be vague. Specify WHY you think we're interesting to an advanced species. You're looking at this from a human-racist/ anthropocentric superiority-driven point of view like on Star Trek.
I doubt the universe shares this view of humans being the uber-race.
I surmise that they may wish to "go native" either for entertainment, or for impregnating with their DNA or being impregnated BY human DNA.
Their race may have become weakened by too much inbreeding.
and want a bit of excitement.
I surmise that they may wish to "go native" either for entertainment, or for impregnating with their DNA or being impregnated BY human DNA.And you think they may be compatible with us DNA-wise exactly why? And for what purpose?-antialias
Here's a hint: Even the closest relatives we have on this planet - which came from common stock to boot - aren't DNA compatible with us to the point of bearing offspring.
Then again: would you want offspring of you and an ape? Why would they want to have offspring with humans?
You seem to have ALL the answers and know E.T. quite well, while MY answers are mere conjecture.
IF E.T. took some proto-humans and infused E.T. DNA into them, it would naturally follow that descendants of those protohumans could never again interbreed with apes. I suppose that would make the Earth and its creatures a vast living research laboratory. Pure science.
Other than the answers I have already given, I haven't much else to offer.
Copy a person and send it somewhere to be reconstituted (as you describe) while leaving the original alive.
I don't subscribe to this "a spacefaring species would spread to all planets". At some point there's no point in spreading. Virtual immortality would very likely go hand in hand with vastly decreased production of offspring (or even complete stasis in that regard)
crazy lunatics-such as the following?
I can't see any other reason for aliens to want to be on our world, or above it, unless they are here to ensure that we don't blow up the planet.-And so they would morph into the form of cats and dogs so they could walk among people such as you, for the purpose of instructing you how not to blow up the planet? And also end up in pounds and cosmetic testing labs? Theyre probably too smart for that.
would very likely go hand in hand with vastly decreased production of offspring (or even complete stasis in that regard)The more they proliferate the more they would consume. Immortal machines would hold a very extended view of their survival. As a goal they might seek to counteract accelerating expansion at least locally, entropy, or heat death.
Probably, but I think the biggest problem is that after 20 million years, there would be very little that was 'new' to be interesting.What makes you think machines would be 'interested' in anything beyond their own desire to exist? This would of course entail keeping tabs on their environs.
It's the ultimate 'big brother' show, any interaction would bias them to duplicate our society and that would be boring.And how would this aid them in their survival? And why do you think machines would need to be entertained? Do you think machines would get bored? Dont you think boredom is a flaw that needs to be rectified and not just appeased?
I have no idea what you're talking about, Blotto...and you don't appear to either.Of course you dont. you dont even read what you write which is obvious. Did you already forget you wrote this?
By the same token, they could appear like a cat or dog and try to interact with us that way...I can't see any other reason for aliens to want to be on our world, or above it, unless they are here to ensure that we don't blow up the planet.-And so HOW would talking animals who are talking to people like YOU prevent the mature, sane people who are in charge of nuclear weapons from using them? HOW would aliens as PETS do this?
The ethical problems would be immense if applied on Earth but as a means of transportation with no duplication allowed, it works well.The ethical PROBLEM is your step b)
b) Dismantle atom by atom noting the type and location.-which in any jurisdiction would be murder.
I don't subscribe to this "a spacefaring species would spread to all planets". At some point there's no point in spreading. Virtual immortality would very likely go hand in hand with vastly decreased production of offspring (or even complete stasis in that regard)
AA only offers opinion and conjecture, as do the rest of us. He ignores a possibility of a weakened state caused by too much interbreeding among E.T....so if a species showed signs of evolving intelligence, what would you do?-Fleetfoot
Allow them to evolve and observe them for signs of true intelligence. (Blotto can't be considered intelligent, nor AlQuaida et al.) True intelligence creates an "atmosphere" of equality, opportunity, liberty and responsibility, among others. I believe that E.T. is empowered with all these values, and expect humans to follow suit. But ONLY if they had infused protohumans with their DNA. Otherwise, we aren't worth their time
the "Ship of Theseus".
there would be very little that was 'new' to be interesting. ... what would you do?
any interaction would bias them to duplicate our society
watching from orbit
Blotto obviously supports such a future due to its evident lack of respect for human-like qualities that are a major part of our existence.So hey - do you think obamas cat is an alien? Maybe obamas cat is a talking ALIEN, but for reasons of national security obama cant tell us you know, that his CAT is actually directing world events and not him. Because many people would be understandably concerned about this. Do you think boehner knows?
Splitting of the subatomic components (or twinning) wouldn't happen and the matter into energy into matter wouldn't break any Laws.But pussytard - as any competent NASA engineer (consultant) would know, most subatomic particles cannot be split as they are fundamental and unsplittable.
-Crazy BlottoSplitting of the subatomic components (or twinning) wouldn't happen and the matter into energy into matter wouldn't break any Laws.But pussytard - as any competent NASA engineer (consultant) would know, most subatomic particles cannot be split as they are fundamental and unsplittable.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Perhaps you should consult with your fellow consultants there at NASA for uh clarification.
You freeking MORON.
What makes you think machines would be 'interested' in anything beyond their own desire to exist?
The ethical problems would be immense if applied on Earth but as a means of transportation with no duplication allowed, it works well.The ethical PROBLEM is your step b)b) Dismantle atom by atom noting the type and location.-which in any jurisdiction would be murder.
the "Ship of Theseus".The ship of Theseus explains the difference between replacing everything at once versus replacing small parts over time.
The reconstituted person would certainly think it is the original.
the two would diverge from that point on to become their own...erm...individual individuals.).
There's no reason the original should be killed in the process.
The reconstituted body would still be the original and no 'seconds' would exist, IF DONE CORRECTLY.
Splitting of the subatomic components (or twinning) wouldn't happen and the matter into energy into matter wouldn't break any Laws.
It would be interesting to see what goes into such an subatomic transference machine
On Earth, it would take the place of single or mass transit, ...
We weren't talking about machines.But machines are all that will be left, sooner or later. Ask yourself what that ball of goo in your head can do that a computer of adequate complexity cant do better, more efficiently, and more dependably?
why the transporter operator didn't get arrested.Because its a tv show? Here is some discussion on the subject.
that would probably be considered unethical and bannedOne of my favorite STTNG episodes was when riker had gotten unknowingly duplicated in the past, and met his double who had been stranded alone on a desolate planet for years. Very sad, well-acted.
We weren't talking about machines.But machines are all that will be left, sooner or later.
Here is some discussion on the subject.
http://scifi.stac...ortation
Would you be getting all the photons or whatever back in their original particle forms and locations?
That is your opinion, it wasn't the topic of conversation in this case.Yeah so? Everybody gets the chance to voice their opinion here nicht wahr?
They have it right, the person is moved but not harmed so there is no legal case to answer.You mean, legal in the federation right? And how would getting disassembled not hurt? How would people not be terrified at the prospect of getting themselves disassembled?
You should have been around to inform Oppenheimer, and all those other scientists that atoms could not be splitAnd poor pussytard now reveals that she does not know the difference between atoms and subatomic particles.
Splitting of the subatomic components-is what you said. Some NASA engineer (consultant).
-FleetfootWhat makes you think machines would be 'interested' in anything beyond their own desire to exist?
We weren't talking about machines.
-BlottoYou should have been around to inform Oppenheimer, and all those other scientists that atoms could not be splitAnd poor pussytard now reveals that she does not know the difference between atoms and subatomic particles.Splitting of the subatomic components-is what you said. Some NASA engineer (consultant).
I have no idea what you're talking about, Blotto...and you don't appear to either. As usual, you ramble in and out of coherency in order to ruin as many threads and their topics as possible.-bamasox
I said what I said and you are changing what I've said.
I don't look at your links since you are a nutcase.
...I haven't much else to offer.-bamasox
.. it wasn't the topic of conversation in this case.Yeah so? Everybody gets the chance to voice their opinion here nicht wahr?
They have it right, the person is moved but not harmed so there is no legal case to answer.You mean, legal in the federation right?
How would people not be terrified at the prospect of getting themselves disassembled?
And the thing which is constructed at the other end is NOT the original YOU.
And whatever would happen with the soul??
The only way this would work with animate objects is if the transfer of the actual body, intact, were warped through sub-space or something. Roddenberry should have used this - much easier to explain.
We accept that it is the same ship if we replace each plank piecemeal so is it not the same if we replace all at once.
I mean in the same sense as a bus driver has no legal case to answer if you get on the bus and he moves you to a new location.And I mean in the sense that fiction writers get to make up anything they want. Transporters were used in ST to save expensive sets and production time. They are implausible scientifically and ethically.
IMO it is the same person.-Which is based on a scifi gimmick. One of these 2 people would experience death, that is certain.
Some people consider the soul to be eternal and able to exist as an independent entity after the physical person dies.I was being facetious. There is no soul. It is also a gimmick, albeit a very successful one.
you are a blinkered mission poster intent on hijacking-As I proposed the AI topic first, I can claim that you hijacked the thread by ignoring it, stimmt? Your galaxy full of obsolete organics is unsupportable. We will be replaced by something better. We can see this process occurring all around us.
1) I take a ship and successively replace each atom with an identical one procured from elsewhere.
2) I make a copy of the ship atom by atom (right next to the original). Then I burn the original and move the copy over to the place the original inhabited.
I'd argue that 1) gives you the same ship while 2) doesn't.
Machine life is also a convincing explanation for the fermi paradox. Singularities are all over, the inevitable result of machine creation. They're very quiet and very frugal. They communicate with each other, they know all about how life emerges and evolves anywhere and everywhere, and they have nothing to say to us or anything further to learn from us.-TheghostofBlotto1923
And so the skies are silent. And empty.
By my count that would still only be a copy. Because if you did it by your interpretation we could end up with two (or more) originals (if we don't discard the original atom or do step 5 multiple times in different locations)
And as noted: once they start having their own (separate) lives from then on they're not even copies anymore.
By my count that would still only be a copy. Because if you did it by your interpretation we could end up with two (or more) originals (if we don't discard the original atom or do step 5 multiple times in different locations)-AA
Each copy would THINK they are an original - but they can't really be. Each would also think the OTHERS are a copy of itself if they were left in the dark about which one came first.
An inherent problem with transporters is angular momentum. You dissolve something which is traveling in one direction at a certain velocity, and reconstitute it somewhere else with a different vector and velocity.
See this is why we are obsolete. I would not have to be telling you this because as machines we would all be privy to the same proofed and relevant info. Instantly. No dialectic necessary.
Why not break down the original into its subatomic parts and then electronically transfer all of the particles AS A UNIT
The cells would have to be broken down into its quantum components so that it can be "fluid" enough to travel along the circuitry connecting to the receiving labUh what are quantum components, what does 'making fluid' mean, and what kind of 'circuitry' are you talking which can carry 'quantum components'? Are you making stuff up with words you don't understand again PT?
I don't see how a state of immortality could be achieved at the receiving lab.
There's no real difference in transmitting/using the original atoms or not in whether you have an original or merely a copy that thinks it is an original.
By deconstructing the original you have killed it.
.. it is the mind (brain) that is chiefly the carrier of all the information, sensations, soul if you will, etc. and the body itself may be recycled ... I suppose that you are correct in that the original body cells will die...UNLESS it can be held in a suspension or a solution such as a material that binds all the cells and subsets together in transit.
, I would still be the same person. Swapping each carbon atom for another, etc., in the process doesn't change that.
-Fleetfoot.. it is the mind (brain) that is chiefly the carrier of all the information, sensations, soul if you will, etc. and the body itself may be recycled ...
You seem to have missed some of the conversation. The process proposed completely dismantles the original atom by atom noting their positions and the only thing that is transmitted electronically is the resulting data file (i.e. an email!). ALL of the material used to reconstruct the person is sourced locally in the destination star system, no material whatsoever is conveyed.
Technology is nowhere near being able to "print" a human. The Chinese were closer to reaching the moon when they invented gunpowder than we currently are to "printing" a human.-FrankHerbutt
ass all the time, you might have understood that neither I nor anyone else was talking about these thingsOthers seem to know a little about the subject. You however say things like this:
The cells would have to be broken down into its quantum components so that it can be "fluid" enough to travel along the circuitry connecting to the receiving lab...So again, what are quantum components, what does 'making fluid' mean, and what kind of 'circuitry' are you talking which can carry 'quantum components'? Are you making stuff up with words you don't understand again PT?
Now go take your meds like a good child and don't interfere in my conversations with other adults, ok?Most people here act like adults. You however use words like toys. 'Well what about 'quantum' things, and 'nanomaterial' things, and handing off 'datafile' things which contain 'essenses' for 'printing' things in, in 'lab' places?? What about THOSE things huh??!?' - pussytard ebulliates.
I see your point as to a process of taking a kind of "snapshot" of all the living cells within the original and possibly their subsets, then transferring all the data into something similar to a datafile. Then sending the datafile to its destination to be regrouped into a reasonable facsimile of the original. Is that correct?
.. the datafile can then be run to a "printer"
Technology is nowhere near being able to "print" a human. The Chinese were closer to reaching the moon when they invented gunpowder than we currently are to "printing" a human.
Even if you could replicate a brain perfectly you'd only be creating a copy of that person's consciousness as the continuity of consciousness would be broken.
The original would still die. That is unless souls exist and the brain is just a tuning mechanism, which I highly doubt.
1- A perfect duplicate is not the original unless every element of the original is entangled with the duplicate (made from soup)-Would this be 'noodle' soup? What kind of 'noodle' soup would this be?
Even then, it would naturally "tune in" to the reconstructed person since their brain and mind would be unchanged from the moment they were frozen and the "snapshot" taken.Consider for a moment, if you will, how easy this will be when machines finally replace us animals
No more than someone who spends some months in a coma, they are still "the same person".
.. they are still "the same person".
I don't necessarily buy this, but I guess there is no current way to prove which idea is correct.
Do you think they'd share some mental link?
If you build a new ship from old blueprints, it's still a new ship. However, if you replace parts of the original ship one by one as they wear, you still have the same ship.
I think the brain could be approached in a similar manner, even converting to an artilect.
antialias_physorg
Dec 3, 2012First off: The drake equation was a (humorous) agenda for a conference - never meant to be taken seriously as an equation.
Fine. But I can see no POV under which ne, fl, fi, fc and fL are independent. (E.g. you can't have fl of zero and an fi of larger than zero)
As noted (correctly) in the article: Numbers based on conjecture are pointless as datapoints. It's the "how long is the Chinese emperor's nose" problem: You can't figure it out by asking 1000 people who have never seen the empereor and taking an average.
This article is an example of what NOT to do with statistics.